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Old 01-26-2006, 02:27 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEM
Revive(not that it was ever popular) pan-sedans! Assoc 10L3T, CRC Pantoura, Corally CCT! Adaptors for touring rubbers if you want; tamiya is making a F103GT!
I think this could be a great class. The cars will be cheaper to run, and they will require better driving skills to extract maximum performance. Bolting a 7 turn with 3800's into one of these things is likely to make you slower, not quicker

However, the problem with this class is that current touring cars are so popular, worldwide, that I simply can't see enough people switching over to the pan car tc's to make it a viable world-wide accepted class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniz24
Yes, but it will cost you double or triple for a motor than now...
Possibly true, but like any new technology it only gets cheaper as it becomes more popular.

Perhaps a better question is "Are you willing to pay more for a new design motor if it lasts a hellavu lot longer?"
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Old 01-26-2006, 05:45 AM   #122
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The more rules, more control and more limitations that some governing body tries to put on a class of racing, the more costly and it difficult it becomes. We have a lot of VERY smart people in this hobby and they will dilligently work to push their car to the max of every rule and limitation. They will try multiple motors, multiple batteries, different charging techniques and a 100 (or more) setup changes to push every variable to the max. Is that the right thing to promote? That type of class COMPLETELY eliminates any chance of a newbie (or someone who has been in the hobby for awhile but is not a fanatic) being even remotely competitive.
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:30 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrUnlimited
Maybe it is recommended for IFMAR and all other organizations to set stock motors to 23turns instead 27turns like in Japan
Do you realize how much of a nightmare Japanese 23T racing is? There is way more tuning and rule loophole work arounds in Japanese 23T than in US 27T stock.
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:44 AM   #124
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Adrian,

if it were handout 23T stockmotors with closed endbells & bushings would it be expensive?
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:52 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by MrUnlimited
Adrian,

if it were handout 23T stockmotors with closed endbells & bushings would it be expensive?
It will never happen. 27T might as well be engrained in our culture...lol!
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Old 01-26-2006, 08:21 AM   #126
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Default 4cell sedan

Hi !

I am from the Ottawa, Ontario club (www.rcottawa.com) and we have been running the 4cell class for the past year (2 Seasons) to encourage the growth of our club.

Our rules are :
3.000 lbs (1361.7g)
190mm width
5mm ride
Stock motor
4 cell up to 3800mah
Foam or Rubber tires
Anybody, Sedan Bodies work best anyhow !

I have been racing for the past 10 years (6cell sedan, 19T Sedan foam, Rubber and Pan10th and 12th) and I have to admit that this class is what our club needed to attract new racers, With this class new racers can learn better and be more consistent, Todays 6cell stock sedan isnt the same as say 6 years ago, the speeds have increased and so as the cost. Starting a new racer in this hobby the right way is important, I have seen to many newbies quit because the the Steep learning curve.

With a 4 cell sedan the Impacts are "Lighter" the motor wear is alot better, tire wear is also better.

The first season I ran 4 cell Sedan I ran an older HPI Pro 2 (500,000+ miles / 7 years out of warranty ) with loose plastic HPI diffs , P2K2, Futaba S3003 (10$ servo) 4 Foam tires Equal diameter but unsure of the compound, left over 3300's @ ~1.172v IR1.9, 15-19lbs springs, I did exceptionally well with it .. the Second racing season I came to my senses and used a Xray FK04 it was even better.

I compared my times with the 6cell Stock sedan A mains from my club and my 4 cell times where 2 laps behind from the Top of the A in 6cells and on occasions I was able to match the 6cell A-Main (7th or 8th place) times with my 4cell setup.

Cheers !

Matts.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:39 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Sharpe
Earlier I said it will be interesting to see where this goes. But I just can't agree with slowing the cars down. I want to go faster. Are we really in need of slower cars?
Actually some people think Mod is way to fast right now. There are very few drivers that can actually drive one of these missiles at todays speed. A little slower would certainly help the Mod class which many people think really fast stock and 19t expert drivers should be running anyway. But that is a whole other discussion, which has it's own thread.

As AdrianM says, it is only about 2 tenths.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:52 AM   #128
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Have any of you considered toy car drag racing?

In any 'money' war the smart people will still be smart. This hobby will always be lead by the intelligent while giving in a bit to average joe who come out for a good time and want to be fairly competitive. If you want to move up the ranks - there are plenty of books, websites, and other reference material to educate yourself. If I was so serious about my toy car racing I would be all over the books, trying to remember the electronics and physics classes, etc. And all the other guys wouldn't tease me about my $11 a year racing budget. Nobody can argue that to be competitive your car has to hit the track in its prime form - whether that be total freshy or with a lap or two scrubbed in. The person who can do that cost effectively will rise toward the top when the others drop out due to their self incurred cost because they thought that throwing money at the problem would solve it. The few who have seemingly unlimited budgets, otherwise mostly known as teams, got smart and pooled their resources. This is how most racing evolves. (You can't team horse racing too well or any other racing with animal/humans quite the same way as vehicles so I will not say "all".) One guy does this, one guy does that and so on. The funny thing is that these are the smart guys so they already know what they are doing and they have the saved/pooled money to keep doing it easier.

The point being, "power" = "knowledge" + "money" and not "power" = "money".

It does not matter what the rules are when everyone faces the same rules. Those who can do.. Those who can't don't. Those who want to must learn how to do or find another set of rules (another class) to run by. This is how new classes get started, then they develop rules so people are racing the same size vehicles, remotely same power, etc, to simplify what people need to concentrate on and then guys bitch about how racing was so much easier when things weren't as developed because it wasn't as competitive when everyone played by different rules in the same class. So they move on to another class. Sounds like laziness. This is were classes come into play. You have 2 kinds of racing. Racers who do it for fun - "amateur, sportsman" and Racers who do it for the competition - "pro, expert, factory" because that's racing. At most larger races these racers are separated. At some they are mixed so you can bang wheels with the "pros". Those who realise where they fall in will enjoy competing with others on their level and the event itself. Those who don't will bitch about something other than their personal level of racing.

The rules state that the touring car has to look like one in a real racing series. I don't know about you but the popular bodies look like wedges with bubbles on them to me. Not really realistic..but hey what's the definition of real? Just wait until somebody builds a custom car, puts an inboard suspension in it, centers all the weight in the car in the middle of the chassis with a currently non-standard battery and motor setup, then goes on to wipe the field because the car was designed to take advantage of physics/mechanics and all the while looks like a TC. Are you going to bitch because the suspension isn't layed out like a "real" one, to scale of a "real" suspension and then want to make rules about it so everyone is competing by the same car? Or are you going to bitch about having to spend a bunch of money to remain competitive?

If you just want to go fast, airplanes are fast at a price. Something about balsa and impacts. So is drag racing, and so are pan cars.

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Old 01-26-2006, 11:59 AM   #129
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Just a suggestion I would propose....

1.) 4-cell TC is an excellent idea...(seems as if it was successful in oval racing)

2.) 27T Stock TC must use rubber tires (even for carpet)
3.) 19T & modified (foams permitted)

4-cells offer such a huge economic advantage for the racers...its the easiest way to allow racers to continue racing with limited budgets.

Less wear & tear on the cars & motors.

Modified Brushed Motor systems will still provide the speeds racers are looking for while Brushless will make the maintence aspect of modified racing that much more enjoyable.

Just my 2 cents....something I would push at ROAR

Will be interesting to see what IFMAR decides on the subject
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:08 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manfredo
So when we assume that stock is the most expensive form of racing (which is my opinion too) why does it make sense to anyone to add restrictions to modified racing. Now we are running 7turn Motors with 6 cells. Reducing to 4 cells would make batteries and Motors even more important...

Personally, I think that it is not the worst thing in the wold that not just anybody is able to control a mod touring car. This class is definately not for beginners... So I ask again: what's the point on this rule ?
The point is that I hope at least that the Trickle Down theory will once again work here....Set this up for the mod guys and have the slower classes adopt this rule eventually too. I am not going to say that reducing the cells is going to change the importance of batteries...not when we've got a new capacity every 6-weeks or so with even more infantessimal IR. I think this is a good viable solution for now. But once LiPo's hit, then things are going to get shaken up again.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:12 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
Just a suggestion I would propose....

1.) 4-cell TC is an excellent idea...(seems as if it was successful in oval racing)

2.) 27T Stock TC must use rubber tires (even for carpet)
3.) 19T & modified (foams permitted)

Not quite, why not ditch the 27 Turns and make it 19T rubber and Mod Foam? What I also like about this is it would once again introduce competition into "spec" racing instead of all these smaller motor tuners that are simply working on the same platforms from the same distributor? No offence to Trinity here in any way; They've built the better mouse trap so to speak and no-one's been able to keep up with their stockers. But 19t motors have many excellent options from Trinity, Reedy, Orion/Peak, Atlas, and more. Makes things interesting instead of just having "Do I run Epic Style A or Epic Style B?"
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Old 01-26-2006, 01:28 PM   #132
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I think it is a great idea.. have

4 cell stock tc (basically a normal stock class where even the average joe can compete. Without the fear of knowing your best will bethe b main... if you look at a race NOW before hand you can usually pick the top 10. It is the same group constanly dominating every race...)

19 turn 4 cell. ( Now all of the people who have dominated the stock class for the last 4 years can move up a class cause the other is now to slow.)

4 cell mod ( a decent speed class for everyone who wants to run it..


6 cell open mod.. (have this as the pro class..If you can handle it then run it.)

You also need foam only for carpet races, and rubber for outdorrs.. Every touring race is spred way to thin..

mod foam
mod rubber
19 t foam
19t rubber
stock foam
stock rubber
novice
12th scale..

thats way to many classes.. Yeah it makes a race look bigger but man.. Maybe if everyone ran one class instead of 2-3 guys could concentrate more on a faster class and make the move up..
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Old 01-26-2006, 03:11 PM   #133
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A friend of mine has been testing this idea for about 6 months or so in various Xray's. He can compete with the stock cars running a 19t and the 19t cars using about a 10t motor. This may be a way that 4 cell racing can be gradually brought into becoming a 'main' class. I think modified will have to remain 6 cell to get the same performance. I see the maintenance as an important part of this anyway. I think most top drivers would want to be able to compete not just through driving ability (if that makes sense).

My friends car is very slightly slower on the straights, but the weight difference means he is a lot quicker through the corners. It also looks very easy to drive. His motor is staying very cool throughout the run, though he is using most of the power from his cells (GP3300's and IB3800's) by the end of 5 minutes. I think there is definately a future in 4 cell racing, its cheaper, easier and just as quick for the stock and 19t classes.
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Old 01-26-2006, 03:59 PM   #134
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[QUOTE=burbs]
4 cell stock tc (basically a normal stock class where even the average joe can compete. Without the fear of knowing your best will bethe b main... if you look at a race NOW before hand you can usually pick the top 10. It is the same group constanly dominating every race...)
QUOTE]

It might help some people in some places but no matter how they change the rules, the "pick for the to 10" pretty much remains the same! The fast guys are still gonna be fast! But I do understand what you're trying to say.
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Old 01-26-2006, 04:34 PM   #135
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Now that everyone has voiced there opinion and got their collective panties in a bunch, it is time to sit back and take a deep breath. The time for theoretical debate is over. The JMRCA has adopted this rule, so the experiment is about to begin. Just sit back and watch what happens in Japan. If it works, great, then I'm sure it will be adopted world wide. If 4-cell TC turns out to be an utter failure, then be glad that some other sanctioning body tried it first. For now, just go to the track, run your car, and be glad you're able to participate in such a great hobby.
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