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Old 02-01-2006, 11:22 AM   #106
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Dale-
I wouldn't worry about these so-called "we want more realism" pansy-asses. We don't go 1/12th of the speed of the real cars so what does it matter Your bodies look good, they WORK, so they sell. Protoform is one of if not the only leader of the pack in this 'progressive' hobby...keep doing what you do Brah
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Old 02-01-2006, 11:42 AM   #107
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haha, dont you wish our 'real' race cars could look a little more like the speed 12 B?? now that would be the $hit.

but speaking for someone that has run the new body already, tis very very good. this is the body that i am 90% sure i will end up running at the snowbirds next weekend, either the B or the regular 12.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:02 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter_robinson
haha, dont you wish our 'real' race cars could look a little more like the speed 12 B?? now that would be the $hit.

but speaking for someone that has run the new body already, tis very very good. this is the body that i am 90% sure i will end up running at the snowbirds next weekend, either the B or the regular 12.

As a painter, it would have been nice to be able to get a hold of some of these for our customers that are going to the birds.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:17 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBee
Dale- I wouldn't worry about these so-called "we want more realism" pansy-asses.
Well that certainly was uncalled for.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:21 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by James35
Well that certainly was uncalled for.
Oh well ...I couldn't care less
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Old 02-01-2006, 02:09 PM   #111
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To my proper British friends:
Now do you see what I'm up against? lol! Guys like JayBee are the only kind of racers that I ever seem to meet at the races here in north america. I'm kinda caught in the middle in more than one way - I live in Canada - a British Commonwealth country. I understand both side of the debate and I personally would like to find a happy medium (performance only vs. realism) If the sanctioning bodies like ROAR, EFRA etc would not only make the 1/12th body rules a little more detailed (with minimum cockpit height & width etc etc) but then enforce their own rules when the bodies are submitted for approval, we could probably make all parties happy. Hey, we might even end up with bodies that the BRCA boys would get excited about.

When ROAR approved a ..."certain" unrealistic 1/12th body a few years ago, (ironically the same week as I released my last "realistic" body style - the DOA Pf Bentley Spd 8) I got on the phone and freaked-out on the ROAR body official - and so did 1/12th guru Frank Calandra. Not because I wanted to prevent another company from winning races (I actually really like those guys) - No, it was to warn them that there would eventually be huge repercussions to this body approval and that they (ROAR) had just singlehandedly taken a huge step backward for the entire 1/12th segment of the r/c sport globally. They were now forcing other companies down the same slipper-slope to slot-car like obscurity for the 1/12th scale class. And guess what? This body has been the inspiration behind evey outragious new 1/12th body style released since then, by Trinity, Protoform, Yokomo, Kawada,and a few other Japanese companies. Not only that, but this "offending" body was used to win the last 1/12th IFMAR World Championship. "Nice going ROAR" was my only thought.

*However, on a positive note, there are some new guys at ROAR now and I believe that things are already starting to improve.

JJ187RC:
Regarding availability: we are filling distributor orders for the 12B as fast as they come in. It's just tough to keep the pipeline full at this time of year, especially with the Snowbirds event drawing near.

regards eh - Dale
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Old 02-01-2006, 02:52 PM   #112
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Last time I checked these are supposed to be "1/10-12th scale MODELS" of full-scale racing cars.

If they're not supposed to be models but racing cars in their own right....then why do we even refer to the classes based on a size comparison to the real thing???

Furthermore...if most folks now regard RC cars as their own design and racing entity, then why must our bodies even resemble full scale cars? Our bodies shouldn't have windows or even a cabin for a supposed 1/10-12th scale size person...

They should simply be shells that optimize aerodynamics for the vehicle.

Of course THEN the performance only guys would say "Wait a min...thats going too far!"

Well maybe it is...however if people keep wanting the performance aspect and shun the scale realism aspect, then I see no reason why our racing vehicles should even resemble full-size cars.

THATS the point of the argument. Without an attempt at scale realism, our bodies would eventually evolve into slammed ugly cheese wedges with no windows because those would be the fastest shapes.

We NEED scale realism folks, because without it we lose not only the modeling side of the hobby, but the very spirit of the different racing classes.
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Old 02-01-2006, 02:55 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ Giles
I feel I have to step in here and defend the BRCA.
I am the Chairman of the 1/12 section of the BRCA, I race at all the UK 1/12 nationals and have done for many years.
The body shell list that we have for 1/12 circuit cars was created by racers for racers.
The process we use to approve a shell is a simple majority vote from the 9 or so drivers who make up the BRCA 1/12 section committee. If 5 or more of them think it is a reasonable representation of a real car then it is approved for use. All we are doing is ensuring the rules as voted on by the British drivers at BRCA AGM’s are applied in a fair manner.
If the drivers want unrealistic shells then they have to come along to the annual meeting and vote to change the rules to allow unrealistic shells.

This is pretty much the case with EFRA as well, except that one person decides weather it is a good representation. I believe this person now in EFRA is a good friend of Anders Myrberg, I suspect the list will grow to include some previously unapproved shells.

For your information the relevant rules from each of the rulebooks are here,

IFMAR
The body shell must be a reasonable, realistic, facsimile of the full-size car on which it is based, with particular attention to realistic height, cockpit area, scoops, vents, wings and aerodynamic devices.

ROAR
Bodies used in ROAR-sanctioned events must resemble vehicles used in full scale racing.

EFRA
The body must be a 1/12 replica of an actual racing car in all areas.

BRCA
The essence of the sport of radio controlled car racing is competition between realistic models of racing automobiles.

ALL these rules say that the body shells should be replicas of real cars, if you don’t like this then get the rules changed, don’t take the p*** out of the system the drivers put in place.
Russ,
I realy like your explination and your 9-driver comitee. I didnīt know that, and honestly, that is not what your fellow brittish drivers have explained while they complained about the "old fashoned" rules in GB, meeting them at races. But I like it, and it sounds very fair.
My "problem" with how the 1/12 body situation is today, is that I personally donīt think ANY of the bodies represent a real car. Yes, some have a line here, a line there, that could relate to a real car, if you look closley, but hey, they all look like slotracing bodies without the damspoiler. They are not representing anything that swings around Le Mans. Thatīs why I have a hard time understand why one or two isnīt approved, but the rest.
Better then to take a new fresh grip on this and make new rules together with the manufacturers, so we can get them LOOK like the real thing, and still perform. I personally would applaude something that look much more realistic.
Itīs the same in touring. ALL roofs are to low. Changing that rule alone, would take care of most lack of realism, but the cars will most probably start to roll in every corner if we go higher, or as high as we should.... So, itīs a balance between scale and performance. And I think itīs OK as these cars are models. Not nesassary scale models.
So, you will not see much more wish for "free form" from me. I just like to understand the logics of why some are legal, and some not, when they seem to fulfil the same criteria.
Just to clarify where I stand. I do not think the Japaneese Ride and new Yokomo, with a trunk long as it was a funnycar should be legal. But with the lack of "real touring cars" in real series, I donīt think the cars need to be a racing car. For me itīs fine as long as the "real car" would qualify for touring races if the ( real ) manufacturer tryed to get the approval from FIA. Whatīs the problem if somebody want to run a SAAB? ( sorry for going away from the topic, the Protoform Speed 12b )

Last edited by Anders Myrberg; 02-01-2006 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:11 PM   #114
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Dale and the rest, with the movement to slow cars(ie JMRCA and TC) and already happening in 1/12 in '99. Why not tie it to one of the major sanctioning bodies and get the rules re-written around a more realistic shape. As we all know with full size cars aerodynamics are part of the huge escalation in speeds, this coupled with the voltage increases we have seen in the last year has made all classes alot faster. I know at our track we are starting to see the complaints of how fast the 1/12 are becoming again. I personally love the speeds but from an entry point of view it can be a little steep.

Dale, is there any way to work with ROAR, IFMAR to force the rule change or is it more of a MFG situation that why rock the boat, or it cost too much to change molds?? Especially that we are in a Worlds year would it make it easier to write the rule change into the 2007 season forward?
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:49 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Difuser
Dale and the rest, with the movement to slow cars(ie JMRCA and TC) and already happening in 1/12 in '99. Why not tie it to one of the major sanctioning bodies and get the rules re-written around a more realistic shape. As we all know with full size cars aerodynamics are part of the huge escalation in speeds, this coupled with the voltage increases we have seen in the last year has made all classes alot faster. I know at our track we are starting to see the complaints of how fast the 1/12 are becoming again. I personally love the speeds but from an entry point of view it can be a little steep.

Dale, is there any way to work with ROAR, IFMAR to force the rule change or is it more of a MFG situation that why rock the boat, or it cost too much to change molds?? Especially that we are in a Worlds year would it make it easier to write the rule change into the 2007 season forward?
This is already on itīs way.
But it will take some time, as the manufacturers need to be involved. Itīs always better to start with an understanding for the problem and request instead of forcing. One big challange is to find how far you can go with the realism and still have performance, and not to forget, have room for all the parts that need to go in the cars. Brushless is a very special challange with all the extra wires, fans and stuff.
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Old 02-02-2006, 01:20 PM   #116
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Difuser;
I like what your saying and I agree 100%. In fact, just this morning I was talking to a ROAR rep. about the same thing. I don't think there will be anything other than proposals in 2006 (and the IFMAR Worlds is part of the reason) but the emphasis this year is to first address the issues concerning sedan/touring car bodies. There has been much progress there I'm told. We also need to have some unity among all the 1/12th race body manufacturers so that everyone has a "say" in the rule changes. Anders is also correct in that there are a few technical issues that may need to be clarified. (brushless motor requirements etc.)
Its a new era it seems. The sanctioning body officials are starting to listen, racers like you are offering constructive advice, and intelligent guys like Anders Myberg are working hard to ensure the future health and stability of electric r/c racing. It's all good - the way I see it. Hopefully, things will look different sometime in 2007.

Dale
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Old 02-02-2006, 02:50 PM   #117
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Old 02-02-2006, 02:59 PM   #118
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I like the realism factor as well, but who's to say that R/C might be beating the real car look to the punch. Think of it like R/C 1/12th bodies as possible concept cars for real cars in the future.

Heck in oval r/c racing we have use Raised wings to keep the rear end planted for years.

Nascar is now testing wings on full sized cars. Think maybe guys like Dale Dr, Mayfield, Stweart that have both RC and Nascar backgrounds didnt propose trying that based off of R/C ?
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Old 03-09-2006, 04:28 PM   #119
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Thumbs up ROAR LEGAL

I just wanted to make sure that it's noted, the PROTOform Speed 12B is a ROAR legal body, even though it might not show up on the ROAR "approved" list on their web site. If anyone should want to use it in Stockton at the Roar Nationals, there will be no problem. Art the tech director out there has a copy of the approval form.

Dale - PROTOform
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Old 03-09-2006, 04:38 PM   #120
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Dale, the speed B body is great product. We need more bodies like that. How about some 1/12 scale oval bodies. Please!!!!!!!!!
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