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Old 10-19-2016, 03:37 PM
  #31  
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A lot of negative prognosticating about a car that has yet to see track time. The Sabre is a good car. The Tamiya Ta07 has the exact same drivetrain layout and it has been a good performer as far as spec racing goes. Let's see how it goes this weekend.
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Old 10-20-2016, 03:35 AM
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There is nothing new here, just a different take on an old idea, with some new technology. My experience with single belt cars comes from Kawada back more than 10 years ago when they started releasing their tourers. The Sigma V1 was impressive in its drivetrain simplicity against the last serious attempts from TRF at shaft cars and early belt cars and a crop of Xrays, early BD, TC3/4 and JRX-S. Looking at it now, the weight is not evenly distributed (not with Lipo, anyway), the chassis is too wide, and the CG is too high. I was hoping someone (maybe even Kawada themselves) would revisit the design and address these issues. With a vertical top deck (which they had in their first tourer, the Alcyon), centralised motor, battery and servo, and a narrow chassis and lower top deck, the design allows a very narrow bulkhead spacing and long suspension arms. Plus a wide choice of motor positions fwd/aft and battery configurations.

Last edited by niznai; 10-20-2016 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 10-20-2016, 03:46 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by bertrandsv87 View Post
Long time for Top to release a new car...
TOP have never been a company to release a new car every year. They are just about on schedule to be honest. Here's their touring car list:

2006 Scythe
2009 Photon
2012 Photon EX
2014 Sabre S4
2016 S4S
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Old 10-20-2016, 06:32 PM
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And this is hardly cutting edge. Previous single belt cars (in addition to XXX-S) were the Kyosho KX-One and Corally Assassin.
It's something that seems to re-appear every 4-5 years. I don't believe it has any REAL advantage, it's just different that's all.
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Old 10-25-2016, 02:01 PM
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Conversion kit was release !
Attached Thumbnails Top Racing Single Belt TC-top-po-s4ck01.jpg  
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:45 PM
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http://www.redrc.net/2016/10/ej-evan...cal-challenge/

Ej ran the Sabre with conversion.
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Old 10-25-2016, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by racenut123 View Post
Nice
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Old 10-26-2016, 03:03 PM
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I race Mod with EJ at the Cencal Challenge in Fresno. He run the new car on 2 round of qualifying I believe just to test it. He switch back Sabre for the rest of the weekend. He showed me the car drivetrain is really free good for spec class.
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Old 10-26-2016, 03:54 PM
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where can I find a new Sabre S4 kit (the one with the dual belt system)? Are they still selling these?
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Old 10-27-2016, 04:37 AM
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[QUOTE=FreeBandz;14715811]where can I find a new Sabre S4 kit (the one with the dual belt system)? Are they still selling these?[/QUOTE


[email protected]
Michael O'Donnell is very good to work with. You can call him 650-583-8898


I actually raced the single belt car in 17.5 at the cencal challenge. I finished 2nd. The drivetrain is absolutely awesome. Very smooth and free. What all racers are looking for. Set up is quite a bit different than the 2 belt car. The new layout had crazy rotation in the corners. Fun car
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Juan Aveytia View Post
When you finish your design. I'd like to see the pics. And if you don't mind, on track performance video without video editing
One step closer.

I now (finally!) have the chassis.

It is based on a Xray T4, custom cut to accept Mi6 bulkheads and with a channel down the middle for the belt.

Not sure what diffs to use, the spacing is narrower and Xray diffs have the pulley offset, Schumacher diffs are too small (I need something around 38 teeth to sink the belt below the chassis).

If not, I will have to resort to some really fancy engineering, maybe graft an Xray pulley on a Losi diff (the new one they brought out in their latest 4WD buggy).

The new Serpent diff in the weird new car looks alright, but it is wide as well.

Suspension will be all Xray simply because it is reliable, proven, available and premium quality. And I have four of their cars lying about.

Top deck is going to be of course the Mi6, which made me space out the bulkheads a little bit further than I would have liked, but at least I can try all their thickness options for tuning. Once I find something that works I can try a custom design for V2.0 but still vertical because I think the idea has serious merit and no drawbacks.

Shock towers will be Mi6 out of necessity, but compared against Xray, I found the shock holes are virtually in the same position both front and rear.

Last edited by niznai; 10-27-2016 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:10 PM
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Sounds pretty cool
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Old 10-27-2016, 09:34 PM
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Those cars are not cutting edge, they are over engineered.

There is an important difference there. Cutting edge shows a decisive improvement over everything else through a significant advantage and that becomes the norm simply because everything else is not competitive any more. Think in terms of the advent of CF, things like that, or CNC engineering, or Ford's assembly line, Edison's light bulb, etc. Over engineering may or may not provide such an advantage, think about someone inventing the best possible oil lamp that would work inverted, or in space and so on. It is still an oil lamp. Or think of all the innovative, cutting edge writing implements, from sophisticated pens to computers. None of which has put the humble pencil out of service.

Cutting edge works better in the real world. Over engineering may or may not. Just as an aside anecdote, the best Swiss mechanical watch that cost gazillions of dollars is only accurate to a couple of seconds per day. A cheap (literally, 2$) electronic quartz driven watch is accurate to a couple of seconds per year. There you go. Over engineering versus cutting edge.

Which is why the Awesomatix is now slowly reverting to more classic designs. Gone is the transverse motor shaft drive, floating gearboxes and possibly other things I didn't notice. I am not sure how the Serpent will fare, but that can't be a cheap car to manufacture. One showed up at our track and I had a chance to see it up close. It is impressive, and I would love to just have one in bits in a glass window in my lounge room, but right now, on the track, it is in its proving stage.

Over engineering is beautiful, you can say it is engineering art, but in the real world not everything works.

This is where a single belt design brings inherent advantages that in my opinion have not been explored properly.

My time and possibilities are way more limited than those of a dedicated company, that is why I am so disappointed nobody is investing in the idea. You could say my work comes out of this disappointment.

I think the latest most important developments to come to our world are: vertical top decks (well done, Schumacher), centralising weight at all cost (well done Gizmo), symmetric flex (well done a few manufacturers here), DCJ shafts (almost everybody is on board with that now), ball raced sway bars (some manufacturers are here), gear diffs (almost perfection achieved by a couple of manufacturers), centralised steering servo (pretty much everybody is on board), and perhaps other things I left out.

If you come up with a design that gives up one of these points today without bringing some vital, more important advantage, you are going backwards, make no mistake about it.

As for belts versus shaft, each has its strong points, each has its applications, but belts are prevailing simply because they cover more ground without giving away much in the way of disadvantage.

Like I said a few times now.

The next big step in RC will be to have direct drive on each wheel (motor in or on each wheel) and diff action will be controlled by electronics. Real (electric) cars (and other applications) are already there in design/concept stage and it looks like this is the way forward. Big industrial cranes have had this system for a long time already out of necessity. In our hobby, all we need is for the price to come down a bit. I predict we'll have it within the next 5 to 10 years.

How good is that going to be?! No belts or other moving parts to sap power, no leaky diffs, magic o-rings and so on, and tuning is done without removing a single screw or even coming off the driver stand, from your radio. Good times ahead.
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Old 10-27-2016, 09:45 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Juan Aveytia View Post
Sounds pretty cool
Meh.

It's a hotch-potch of what someone with limited time and resources can do without quitting their day job.

The crucial goal I need to achieve if I am to prove anything is to eek some advantage from perfect symmetry and weight centralisation. If I manage to find a clear advantage, the exercise might mean something. If not, it will just be another dead end. Compared to the Gizmo, I don't think I can win. The question of drivetrain efficiency (one belt vs two) still bugs me, and right now I am inclined to think the Gizmo has the edge there. I hope I am wrong, hence the motivation to run this expensive (for me) experiment.

I might be able to move the motor back further than the Gizmo, and place the battery down the centre (think either shorty length wise or square pack, or even saddle packs side by side or across). Test fittings suggest this is possible.

I am now thinking about a central servo mechanism, something direct on the servo with no linkages.

Another idea is to have the battery straight up front and the steering servo behind it, somewhere in front of the motor, to put more weight on the front.

We'll see what comes out of it if I ever finish it.

Last edited by niznai; 10-28-2016 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:36 PM
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"Cutting edge" doesn't always mean superior. It's used to describe the latest or most advanced development. Over engineered designs like those listed above do classify as cutting edge.
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