62LikesLet's talk modified 1/12
08-30-2016, 04:08 PM
#302
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
I wouldn't be opposed to spec 1/12 tires across the board. I see it's being implemented in 17.5 and really with this current carpet it would work fine in all classes. I would probably worry a bit more if we were on the old rug....
One key element is the bodies. Right now we run the rear of them very high (compared to the past) so reducing the rear height/rake would go a long way in mellowing out the response and edgy feeling of the typical 1/12 mod car. This is also a down force reduction which would slow lap times considerably and sort of act like more narrow/harder tires.
The only issue with narrow tires is wear. You start loading the contact patch a lot harder and it will lead to increased tire wear.
I've talked to Wayne and will do some testing/running at The Gate starting this Saturday. I will be running mostly open Mod to prepare for the IIC but I will be testing 6.5, CRC shorty packs, charging to lower voltage points, blinky, bodies, body height to hopefully start compiling some real world data on how the cars are affected to confirm or bust some of the theories here. Hopefully we can start to answer some of these questions with real world results.
One key element is the bodies. Right now we run the rear of them very high (compared to the past) so reducing the rear height/rake would go a long way in mellowing out the response and edgy feeling of the typical 1/12 mod car. This is also a down force reduction which would slow lap times considerably and sort of act like more narrow/harder tires.
The only issue with narrow tires is wear. You start loading the contact patch a lot harder and it will lead to increased tire wear.
I've talked to Wayne and will do some testing/running at The Gate starting this Saturday. I will be running mostly open Mod to prepare for the IIC but I will be testing 6.5, CRC shorty packs, charging to lower voltage points, blinky, bodies, body height to hopefully start compiling some real world data on how the cars are affected to confirm or bust some of the theories here. Hopefully we can start to answer some of these questions with real world results.
08-30-2016, 07:12 PM
#303
I actually tried narrow rear tires in 13.5 on the new rug just before birds this year. It was good for about 2 minutes and then just went away after that. So I am not sure it would be that good of an option. When I say went away it was almost undriveable in 13.5. But then again I have not went back and tried it again since we have learned more about what works on the new carpet. So could be good to revisit it.
EA
EA
08-30-2016, 08:46 PM
#304
Tech Regular
I wouldn't be opposed to spec 1/12 tires across the board. I see it's being implemented in 17.5 and really with this current carpet it would work fine in all classes. I would probably worry a bit more if we were on the old rug....
One key element is the bodies. Right now we run the rear of them very high (compared to the past) so reducing the rear height/rake would go a long way in mellowing out the response and edgy feeling of the typical 1/12 mod car. This is also a down force reduction which would slow lap times considerably and sort of act like more narrow/harder tires.
The only issue with narrow tires is wear. You start loading the contact patch a lot harder and it will lead to increased tire wear.
I've talked to Wayne and will do some testing/running at The Gate starting this Saturday. I will be running mostly open Mod to prepare for the IIC but I will be testing 6.5, CRC shorty packs, charging to lower voltage points, blinky, bodies, body height to hopefully start compiling some real world data on how the cars are affected to confirm or bust some of the theories here. Hopefully we can start to answer some of these questions with real world results.
One key element is the bodies. Right now we run the rear of them very high (compared to the past) so reducing the rear height/rake would go a long way in mellowing out the response and edgy feeling of the typical 1/12 mod car. This is also a down force reduction which would slow lap times considerably and sort of act like more narrow/harder tires.
The only issue with narrow tires is wear. You start loading the contact patch a lot harder and it will lead to increased tire wear.
I've talked to Wayne and will do some testing/running at The Gate starting this Saturday. I will be running mostly open Mod to prepare for the IIC but I will be testing 6.5, CRC shorty packs, charging to lower voltage points, blinky, bodies, body height to hopefully start compiling some real world data on how the cars are affected to confirm or bust some of the theories here. Hopefully we can start to answer some of these questions with real world results.
Steve
08-30-2016, 08:49 PM
#305
Tech Apprentice
How about limiting to LMP1 look alike bodies rather than the current ones what does not look like anything really.. With a limited size rear wing the down force would be considerable lowered and the cars would look awesome... Or other GT type bodies.
This would fix the most boring part about RC, the bodies looks terrible in most classes today.
Edit: However nothing limits the tire manufacturers just to make softer rear tires and then we are back on square one. Maybe with even more tire wear.
Is it possible to control the Shore rating of the tires in order to reduce grip as well as wear?
One key element is the bodies. Right now we run the rear of them very high (compared to the past) so reducing the rear height/rake would go a long way in mellowing out the response and edgy feeling of the typical 1/12 mod car. This is also a down force reduction which would slow lap times considerably and sort of act like more narrow/harder tires.
This would fix the most boring part about RC, the bodies looks terrible in most classes today.
Edit: However nothing limits the tire manufacturers just to make softer rear tires and then we are back on square one. Maybe with even more tire wear.
Is it possible to control the Shore rating of the tires in order to reduce grip as well as wear?
One key element is the bodies. Right now we run the rear of them very high (compared to the past) so reducing the rear height/rake would go a long way in mellowing out the response and edgy feeling of the typical 1/12 mod car. This is also a down force reduction which would slow lap times considerably and sort of act like more narrow/harder tires.
Last edited by martinskarin; 08-30-2016 at 10:04 PM.
08-30-2016, 09:27 PM
#306
If someone likes to run a 6.5 blinky at the IIC can do it already, there's no rule which will prevent it.
Why everyone is always calling for a rule change to fix something, which isn't really brocken. I know that the turnouts are low for 1/12 mod, but that is the same for all 1/12 classes anyway. The only thing what can be done is a spec tire.
08-30-2016, 10:11 PM
#307
Here's a thought... 2s.
Bare with me on this, it was a discussion doing the rounds at the world's (along with control tyres.) It's also totally not my idea... but I think it has merit.
Theory goes. Current 1s packs are simply two cells in parrell to make the massive capacity. So why not try switching them to a series configuration, doubling the voltage but more importantly halving the capacity. When you have guys currently dumping 8000mah packs, there is absolutely no way of making 8mins with a 4000mah. So runtime becomes the driver on how much motor you can run. Keep the physical battery dimensions the same which will cap any increase in capacity, and there is no need to change the chassis either, as weight and location of the batts is the same as now. Plus you then don't need dedicated 1s electrics.
I do know this was an idea Scotty was thinking of trialing at IIC, but don't know if he is actually going to. But it had support of a number of top drivers.
Bare with me on this, it was a discussion doing the rounds at the world's (along with control tyres.) It's also totally not my idea... but I think it has merit.
Theory goes. Current 1s packs are simply two cells in parrell to make the massive capacity. So why not try switching them to a series configuration, doubling the voltage but more importantly halving the capacity. When you have guys currently dumping 8000mah packs, there is absolutely no way of making 8mins with a 4000mah. So runtime becomes the driver on how much motor you can run. Keep the physical battery dimensions the same which will cap any increase in capacity, and there is no need to change the chassis either, as weight and location of the batts is the same as now. Plus you then don't need dedicated 1s electrics.
I do know this was an idea Scotty was thinking of trialing at IIC, but don't know if he is actually going to. But it had support of a number of top drivers.
08-30-2016, 11:13 PM
#308
I am not sure if this has ever been done in RC car racing but what about having EXHIBITION races at big events. 8-10 cars, one-and-done race format with no qualifiers and starting order being determined by the race director. This way we could have a round of spec-tire mod, motor limit mod, or whatever, even wacky classes like foam tire touring or foam F1. In order to open peoples eyes to changes we need to have tech exhibitions before making new rules.
08-30-2016, 11:15 PM
#310
Ed, read back to last page, Howard goes into some detail how increasing the voltage while decreasing capacity makes no difference since a 4000mah 2s has roughly the same energy total as a 1s 8000mah pack. Runtimes would be no different as people would probably have to settle in running a 6-8T motor to make runtime and the cars would be equally as fast.
Now, when it all boils down to it, we have to be realistic. Mod 12th is BROKEN, everywhere in the world. The UK made a change for a reason, and it being one of the 3 largest 12th scale markets in the world (the other 2 being Japan and USA), they are trying to bring back the class due to low attendance numbers. I know for a fact, Japan's mod numbers are not healthy either.
On a personal level, I feel like I am very capable with a mod 12th scale. Mod is not too fast for me, and I feel like a well set up open mod 12th scale car is actually easier to drive than a sedan in open mod, which I am very competent in driving. So I am not seeking an "easy button". Slowing the cars down would probably increase the difficulty to win as the fields would probably double up and much needed talent would be fed into the modified classes.
Enforcing a minimum turn motor is the easiest solution, really. Perhaps leave the speedo settings open, so as to eliminate the motor/ battery wars that you all think we will have (even though blinky 6.5 is too fast for 90% of the racers out there already). It simply is an economically efficient outcome (not speaking in monetary terms here, but in positive vs negative outcomes). This does not have to be a ROAR decision, it has to go to the highest level, being IFMAR so that other blocs can follow suit.
Limiting capacity is a beautiful idea, but it is impractical unless you change the case size. As others have pointed out, it is hard to police the capacity of batteries out there. The only thing I can think of, is mandating low profile batteries, which dictates manufacturers develop a smaller dimensional battery for the market. This would lead to people having to have specific equipment to run mod, which would make the transition have more obstacles for people to overcome.
At the end of the day, I guarantee that Hebert, Lia and Cyrul will still be the fastest guys running in the mod class. However, I am 100% certain some of the top spec drivers would give it a whirl, like Wiita and Van Ert did at the Full Throttle champs.
Let's not let our egos get in the way and say "mod is supposed to be hard". Mod with 6.5 blinky or boosted would still be plenty fast to make it challenging, but it would bring the pack closer together, (which would benefit the front runners tremendously when dealing with lap traffic), increase the turnouts which in itself provides different challenges shifting the difficulty to other aspects of the discipline. Slower cars would also mean more finishers during mod races, something that seldom is the case at any national and in many cases international events. Slower cars mean less tire wear, fewer broken parts, longer lasting bodies, and this translates into more track time, which I would assume is what everyone wants.
RC is in a difficult place right now, let's not forget to be inclusive of others and wait to see if this pans out. Everyone always gets in a state of panic when changes are proposed and lose sight of what the change intends to bring. If we expect for things to get better doing the same thing over and over, we are insane by definition. The bottom line is the cars are too fast, the gap too big from the slower classes and the influx of drivers too low.
Josh mentioned a while back that the 10th scale pan car went the way of the dodo because they were too fast. By the same logic, we all have to realize that the same thought process can be applied to mod 12th.
Personally, I invite people to do a personal inventory of why mod 12th scale is not working. Then think about practical solutions. Find one that is more effective than instituting a minimum wind motor and chime in. Changing downforce involves changing the current available bodies. Changing batteries involves re-designing the battery pack. Changing to rubber involves going away from foam. Increasing voltage brings no change to the speeds and runtime. Keeping it the same brings no change.
Now, when it all boils down to it, we have to be realistic. Mod 12th is BROKEN, everywhere in the world. The UK made a change for a reason, and it being one of the 3 largest 12th scale markets in the world (the other 2 being Japan and USA), they are trying to bring back the class due to low attendance numbers. I know for a fact, Japan's mod numbers are not healthy either.
On a personal level, I feel like I am very capable with a mod 12th scale. Mod is not too fast for me, and I feel like a well set up open mod 12th scale car is actually easier to drive than a sedan in open mod, which I am very competent in driving. So I am not seeking an "easy button". Slowing the cars down would probably increase the difficulty to win as the fields would probably double up and much needed talent would be fed into the modified classes.
Enforcing a minimum turn motor is the easiest solution, really. Perhaps leave the speedo settings open, so as to eliminate the motor/ battery wars that you all think we will have (even though blinky 6.5 is too fast for 90% of the racers out there already). It simply is an economically efficient outcome (not speaking in monetary terms here, but in positive vs negative outcomes). This does not have to be a ROAR decision, it has to go to the highest level, being IFMAR so that other blocs can follow suit.
Limiting capacity is a beautiful idea, but it is impractical unless you change the case size. As others have pointed out, it is hard to police the capacity of batteries out there. The only thing I can think of, is mandating low profile batteries, which dictates manufacturers develop a smaller dimensional battery for the market. This would lead to people having to have specific equipment to run mod, which would make the transition have more obstacles for people to overcome.
At the end of the day, I guarantee that Hebert, Lia and Cyrul will still be the fastest guys running in the mod class. However, I am 100% certain some of the top spec drivers would give it a whirl, like Wiita and Van Ert did at the Full Throttle champs.
Let's not let our egos get in the way and say "mod is supposed to be hard". Mod with 6.5 blinky or boosted would still be plenty fast to make it challenging, but it would bring the pack closer together, (which would benefit the front runners tremendously when dealing with lap traffic), increase the turnouts which in itself provides different challenges shifting the difficulty to other aspects of the discipline. Slower cars would also mean more finishers during mod races, something that seldom is the case at any national and in many cases international events. Slower cars mean less tire wear, fewer broken parts, longer lasting bodies, and this translates into more track time, which I would assume is what everyone wants.
RC is in a difficult place right now, let's not forget to be inclusive of others and wait to see if this pans out. Everyone always gets in a state of panic when changes are proposed and lose sight of what the change intends to bring. If we expect for things to get better doing the same thing over and over, we are insane by definition. The bottom line is the cars are too fast, the gap too big from the slower classes and the influx of drivers too low.
Josh mentioned a while back that the 10th scale pan car went the way of the dodo because they were too fast. By the same logic, we all have to realize that the same thought process can be applied to mod 12th.
Personally, I invite people to do a personal inventory of why mod 12th scale is not working. Then think about practical solutions. Find one that is more effective than instituting a minimum wind motor and chime in. Changing downforce involves changing the current available bodies. Changing batteries involves re-designing the battery pack. Changing to rubber involves going away from foam. Increasing voltage brings no change to the speeds and runtime. Keeping it the same brings no change.
08-30-2016, 11:32 PM
#311
Watts = Amps x Volts, yes?
Half the amps but twice the volts is still the same number of watts. Watts is your energy available for work. If anything, with higher voltage we'd suffer less heat loss through more efficient electronics.
Not that we'd conserve it. We'd just go faster.
08-31-2016, 01:12 AM
#312
You speak of capacity...I think that not's quite right?
Watts = Amps x Volts, yes?
Half the amps but twice the volts is still the same number of watts. Watts is your energy available for work. If anything, with higher voltage we'd suffer less heat loss through more efficient electronics.
Not that we'd conserve it. We'd just go faster.
Watts = Amps x Volts, yes?
Half the amps but twice the volts is still the same number of watts. Watts is your energy available for work. If anything, with higher voltage we'd suffer less heat loss through more efficient electronics.
Not that we'd conserve it. We'd just go faster.
I understand that the Japanese already run 2s 21.5t in their stock classes, and it's comparable to 10.5t 1s.. so there are packs out there.
08-31-2016, 01:42 AM
#313
You speak of capacity...I think that not's quite right?
Watts = Amps x Volts, yes?
Half the amps but twice the volts is still the same number of watts. Watts is your energy available for work. If anything, with higher voltage we'd suffer less heat loss through more efficient electronics.
Not that we'd conserve it. We'd just go faster.
Watts = Amps x Volts, yes?
Half the amps but twice the volts is still the same number of watts. Watts is your energy available for work. If anything, with higher voltage we'd suffer less heat loss through more efficient electronics.
Not that we'd conserve it. We'd just go faster.
Such 2S packs already exists, and I think shorty packs have the same footprint as 1S ones, but are a bit taller, they might fit some 12th scale cars.
http://www.muchmoreracing.net/product_view.php?pidx=1251
08-31-2016, 04:25 AM
#314
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics)
"These formulas demonstrate that work is the energy associated with the action of a force, so work subsequently possesses the physical dimensions, and units, of energy. The work/energy principles discussed here are identical to Electric work/energy principles."
Last edited by howardcano; 08-31-2016 at 04:39 AM.
08-31-2016, 05:28 AM
#315
You're all forgetting something. If you double the voltage, you double the current! Now in the real world, the current used wouldn't be doubled because you wouldn't be able to use all the speed, but the current draw would increase quite a bit. 12th scale went 1s because 2s was too fast.
If you really want to put the pressure on run time then the easiest way to do that is increase the race length.
I don't like blinky because it takes away one area of the equation. I would really like to see what the SC companies would come up with if they had the freedom to develop it. For 1/12 mod I could see things like dynamic current control. There's a drag racing equivalent for this stuff but it would take me an hour to explain. For those of you who know think throttle stops, particularly in the super classes.
If you really want to put the pressure on run time then the easiest way to do that is increase the race length.
I don't like blinky because it takes away one area of the equation. I would really like to see what the SC companies would come up with if they had the freedom to develop it. For 1/12 mod I could see things like dynamic current control. There's a drag racing equivalent for this stuff but it would take me an hour to explain. For those of you who know think throttle stops, particularly in the super classes.