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Old 02-15-2006, 08:45 AM   #331
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The safety issue is directly related to the AMA. From the information I was given, the AMA had 2000 insurance claims last year related to Lipo's. Just becuase there are instructions on the products, does not take the liability away. We have to be prudent on this kind of issue.

Then we still have the other 3 issues to work on. I fully believe that by the time we resolve the other 3 issues, that the saftey issue will be moot.

BTW, I am not critic of Lipo's, I cannot wait until we have a good framework to use them in competetion.



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Originally Posted by Darkseid
This is one thing I don't get from Tim Potter's list. I understood the "Voltage", "Form factor", and "Cost" as concerns for the sanctioning bodies. But "Safety"??? Why would these packs require any extra attention in that department?

Last I checked, all packs, kits, chargers, dischargers, etc...already come with a warning about using them correctly.

Its called the instructions!

A lot of critics that I've seen, seem to forget that at one point, EVERYONE had to eventually switch to a new charger to deal with NiMH packs. Anybody remember that? Now I know what some will say, "well this is different"? How? When NiMh first came out, I heard horror stories of packs being charged improperly and venting and yes 'gasp' even catching fire. Sound familiar to anyone?(so I guess that isn't a Lipo exclusive )

Now I don't know about you guys, but even with those horror stories, I don't recall any labels on my new NiMH pack reminding me to use the proper charger? At least not any labels required by a sanctioning body.

I think warning labels need to be left to the people who know them best....the lawyers. And I'm sure every company has all the lawyers they need to make sure that people know to use their products correctly...and that if the don't...whatever happens is on them.

And the last thing they need is sanctioning bodies telling them what their lawyers are already telling them.
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Old 02-15-2006, 09:34 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank N. Furter
Since when do drivers read instruction manuals


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Originally Posted by Frank N. Furter
What utter rubbish! No, EVERYONE didn't have to get a new charger- the only thing they had to do was adjust the cut-off. Turbo-30 owner
Okay, everyone who didn't own a $300+ dollar charger had to. And if I recall correctly, the battery makers did infact recommend to people that they get a charger ment for charging NiMH. Not just adjust cut-off.


The point I was making is that going from NiMH to LiPo wont utterly change and disrupt the industry any more than it was with the switch from NiCD to NiMH.

Size, cost, and charger concerns were all present at that time as well. I just think people are over reacting.

But then again, that is the natural human reaction to change....panic.
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Old 02-15-2006, 09:44 AM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
The safety issue is directly related to the AMA. From the information I was given, the AMA had 2000 insurance claims last year related to Lipo's. Just becuase there are instructions on the products, does not take the liability away. We have to be prudent on this kind of issue.

Then we still have the other 3 issues to work on. I fully believe that by the time we resolve the other 3 issues, that the saftey issue will be moot.

BTW, I am not critic of Lipo's, I cannot wait until we have a good framework to use them in competetion.
No, I wasn't saying you were a critic. You don't have to search far on this thread to find them. They drop in and throw comments like "these things are gonna blow up and kill everyone" then disappear. Thats the type of person I'm talking about.

And I'm aware that the instructions don't remove liability. But again, thats what the lawyers are for. But there are 2 things you have to remember:

1. whether the issue of safty is brought by the company or a sanctioning body, you still can't MAKE people follow the rules. I mean how long have we had NiMH, and look at AdrianM's post, you still have people that make mistakes charging them and put others at risk. It can't be helped and no 'rule' or 'warning' is going to stop it. And as Frank Furter noted in his post, people will always try to do stupid stuff to get an advantage, like charging Lipo with motor functions...YIKES!

2. people sue....thats it. Whether what happened was their fault or not, accident or not. People sue. I mean hell, Tamiya's car manuals still have warnings for kids not to chase their cars into the street...but if one did, you can be sure that some sleezy lawyer would convince the parents that they could sue Tamiya. So sueing is going to happen, insurance claims will happen...no matter what.


So whether LiPo's are legal today...tomorrow...or 3 years from now, if something goes wrong(and what product doesn't have something go wrong at some point) the insurance claims and lawsuits will still be there.

I just think that, like I said before, if Kokam and Orion are standing by their claim that these are a different breed of Lipo than the ones that have had so much problems in the past, then until proven wrong, they shouldn't have to bear the burden of other companies past bad products.
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Old 02-15-2006, 10:00 AM   #334
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Look, I'm not trying to "take on" the sanctioning bodies, or the pursuit of "safety".

I'm just trying to say that every product that we use has a warning label. EVERY product. That includes everything we use in R/C. So why should this one product be under extra scrutiny? Are they any less dangerous than swallowing nitro fuel? Leaving a soldering iron unattended? Overcharging a battery pack? A run away nitro car?

There are a lot of dangers out there in this hobby.

I just don't see what all the extra safety fuss about this one product is about. Now if the sanctioning bodies give this kind of scrutiny to every new product(and maybe they do), then all this would make sense to me.
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Old 02-15-2006, 12:51 PM   #335
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I was not saying that you thought I was a critic, just making sure you knew my standpoint.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid
No, I wasn't saying you were a critic. You don't have to search far on this thread to find them. They drop in and throw comments like "these things are gonna blow up and kill everyone" then disappear. Thats the type of person I'm talking about.

And I'm aware that the instructions don't remove liability. But again, thats what the lawyers are for. But there are 2 things you have to remember:

1. whether the issue of safty is brought by the company or a sanctioning body, you still can't MAKE people follow the rules. I mean how long have we had NiMH, and look at AdrianM's post, you still have people that make mistakes charging them and put others at risk. It can't be helped and no 'rule' or 'warning' is going to stop it. And as Frank Furter noted in his post, people will always try to do stupid stuff to get an advantage, like charging Lipo with motor functions...YIKES!

2. people sue....thats it. Whether what happened was their fault or not, accident or not. People sue. I mean hell, Tamiya's car manuals still have warnings for kids not to chase their cars into the street...but if one did, you can be sure that some sleezy lawyer would convince the parents that they could sue Tamiya. So sueing is going to happen, insurance claims will happen...no matter what.


So whether LiPo's are legal today...tomorrow...or 3 years from now, if something goes wrong(and what product doesn't have something go wrong at some point) the insurance claims and lawsuits will still be there.

I just think that, like I said before, if Kokam and Orion are standing by their claim that these are a different breed of Lipo than the ones that have had so much problems in the past, then until proven wrong, they shouldn't have to bear the burden of other companies past bad products.
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Old 02-15-2006, 01:04 PM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
I was not saying that you thought I was a critic, just making sure you knew my standpoint.
Yeah I got you.
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Old 02-15-2006, 05:06 PM   #337
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Anyone tried running this with a Cyclone yet? Just need to see if any modifications are needed to make it fit.
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Old 02-16-2006, 06:16 AM   #338
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Darkseid
Taking a set back from all the whoo-hah, I can see that they come and it is just a question of when. Some drivers attitude seems to be – I have them so they should be allowed now! And are antagonistic towards those who have to say No. If you asked any of the sanctioning bodies they would have said ‘No’ on the grounds of chemistry, size, voltage and price plus they wouldn’t have been submitted in time.

A friend of mine, who used to race cars, and now plays with planes and electric helicopters, did express concern when I told him that there was Lipo’s for cars. He knows how much we abuse our equipment but when I explained that Orion had got together with the battery manufacturer and came up with something for cars that was encased in a plastic box, he was relived. The cells that they use aren’t protected and with all the crashing and bashing and cells falling out that occurs in cars, he had felt it was a recipe for trouble. After all the existing cells all come in effectively a metal case which protects them.

All credit to Orion for seeing something and bringing to the market. Now all we need is for another manufacturer to come along to give them some competition and drive the prices down. I don’t like monopolies and having to be reliant on a single company.
BTW The Turbo 30 was second-hand and cost less than half that
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Old 02-16-2006, 12:49 PM   #339
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Yes good job, this has changed electric racing for ever ! Big improvement !
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Old 02-16-2006, 05:19 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank N. Furter
Darkseid
Taking a set back from all the whoo-hah, I can see that they come and it is just a question of when. Some drivers attitude seems to be – I have them so they should be allowed now! And are antagonistic towards those who have to say No. If you asked any of the sanctioning bodies they would have said ‘No’ on the grounds of chemistry, size, voltage and price plus they wouldn’t have been submitted in time.

A friend of mine, who used to race cars, and now plays with planes and electric helicopters, did express concern when I told him that there was Lipo’s for cars. He knows how much we abuse our equipment but when I explained that Orion had got together with the battery manufacturer and came up with something for cars that was encased in a plastic box, he was relived. The cells that they use aren’t protected and with all the crashing and bashing and cells falling out that occurs in cars, he had felt it was a recipe for trouble. After all the existing cells all come in effectively a metal case which protects them.

All credit to Orion for seeing something and bringing to the market. Now all we need is for another manufacturer to come along to give them some competition and drive the prices down. I don’t like monopolies and having to be reliant on a single company.
BTW The Turbo 30 was second-hand and cost less than half that
I guess we'll just have to wait and see how all this plays out. I just hope the people who make those decisions go into it with an open mind.
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Old 02-17-2006, 03:41 AM   #341
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I ran my first race yesterday with the Lipo's in 19 turn spec class on carpet using foam tires.

My first run I did with GP 3700 packs.

Second run was done with the Lipo's. The car felt like it had more punch then before but the top speed was about the same.
I think the feeling of more punch can be mostly attributed to the loss in weight of the car. But the Lipo was certainly as good and a little better than my best racing pack.

What was however very surprising is that we run 5 minute races. Normally with the GP 3700 packs I have a little less than 1000 Mah left when I discharge.
I discharged the Lipo today and it gave 3031 Mah upon discharging.
Talking about having some capacity to spare

Biggest advantage off the Lipo's will however be the time they last I hope. I think they will last a lot longer than normal batteries because they do not get warm at all and everybody always says that heat is what wears out our batteries.
If they stay like this for more than one year they are well worth the investment.
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Old 02-17-2006, 03:45 AM   #342
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waohhh very impressive, make sure you re-charged it, they said it must be stored charged !
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Old 02-17-2006, 03:50 AM   #343
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Default Don't do that

A word of caution, don't discharge unless you have set the correct cutoff voltage. I would not bother unless I really needed to know how much capacity is left. Just use and then re-charge.

I am surprised you did not see a significant increase in punch and top speed. I did ! I run Stock 27t
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Old 02-17-2006, 04:22 AM   #344
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I use a Robitronic Overloader for these batteries and I set the discharge cut off at 6.0 volt.
I also always store them completely charged. That is the beauty of these Lipo's: no heat and you can charge them days in advance.
So now when I go to the track my lipos are already charged and I only need one charger instead off two to keep racing all day long.
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Old 02-17-2006, 07:18 AM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyuk99
I am surprised you did not see a significant increase in punch and top speed. I did !
So did I. In fact, while running the same motor and electronics, I actually found myself going down 2 teeth on my pinion and still seeing a speed increase. The punch increase and top end increase was that significant over my 'mid-budget' "1.18v/cell" 3700 packs.

Now I would expect that someone running top end "1.21v-1.22v/cell" packs may not notice that type of increase.

So I guess it all depends on what packs you were coming from.
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