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Old 12-10-2005, 08:22 AM   #46
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Interesting discussion, albeit a bit crude in the delivery.

Of note, I race BOTH touring cars and 12th scale on carpet during the winter. I enjoy both for different reasons. However, there are some things about touring cars and their unexplainable popularity that have always confounded me. For a class of racing that barely existed in this country for a sneeze in time to have become so popular in scale model racing, I still believe that there were industry and editorial forces at work that pushed the hobby in that direction. Why, I'm not sure. This is one of the biggest issues I have with touring cars. To me, they represent nothing of what is being raced for real in this country (and don't tell me that the Speed series is a touring car series), which is what initially attracted me to R/C racing in the 80s.

For whatever reason, we are obsessed with a type of model race car that has no real counterpart in motorsports. I never understood the affection with touring cars, but I still enjoy racing them. The fact that we all spend money on them is a Catch 22. We buy them because that's what everyone buys and raced. We race them because it's really the only game in town for road racing, and everyone buys them. It's just a phase of R/C like anything else. In the last 30 years, everything cycles in popularity. Look at the insane growth of racing monster trucks in the last 2 years. If someone can explain THAT one, I'm all ears, as well.

However, I have to say that I love the touring cars themselves because of the technology. I don't appreciate new cars every 3-6 months, but the quality, design and engineering of some of these race machines is mesmerizing. I sometimes just sit and look at my RDX just to LOOK at it. Some of you guys may have no idea how much real racing design and engineering is in these little "toys." It's amazing, and I can surely appreciate the beauty and craft in these cars.

I also love the simplicity of a pan car, and the fact that 12th scale technology is essentially the same as it has been since 1980. There is something comforting about keeping a car on the shelf, knowing that in 3 years, you'll still be competitive with it, and you'll be able to find parts, and they won't cost you more than the price of the car to buy if and when you might need them. I love 8 minute races, and having 2 more minutes of battery left when I'm done. My heart is with 12th scale cars on carpet, but if it's a 4-car class, I'll be running my touring car that day with the other 35-odd guys who came to race.


doug


This is a really good topic, please don't muddy it up with, "your stuff sucks, mine is better" comments.
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Old 12-10-2005, 08:52 AM   #47
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Somone had commented on why 10th scale pan cars were replaced by 12th scale pan cars. Maybe its because of the size? I mean its easier to race smaller cars in tighter spaces..alot of tracks cant build big so I guess 12th scale gives some people breathing room to set up race programs (just a thoery) Asfar as this whole discussion goes...well..I dunno any class can turn into a money pit. You can either spend it on the car or on supporting gear..like chargers and all sorts of magic devices to make your batteries and motors better. I just sold my TC and got into 12th alittle while ago. I sold my FK05 because the crowd simply left and moved onto another track where the competition and the spending is big. Now 12th scale is making a come back locally. Is it more fun than TC?..ehh nah I liked them both. Is it cheaper?..yes. The car itself and batteries are cheaper..but now Im wondering what kinda super expensive charger, lathe, comm this and that, maybe BL?..I dunno..its exponential the spending in this hobby. It comes with the territory.
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Old 12-10-2005, 08:52 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackKat
I guess I have come to accept this. I am unsure why anyone whould enjoy TC racing as opposed to pan car racing. My theory is that there is much more money involved in TC and you guys with the money just can't resist having the latest and greatest stuff. By your "if you don't want to spend money, then take up knitting" logic I could say "if you want to throw money away, take up drugs" I believe this is bad for the hobby because there is no reguard for the younger up & comming drivers who can't afford to compete at the level their skill dictates. I guess this why we don't have many young up & comming drivers anymore.

I care about the future, I am the future. I don't like the way the hobby is going and I am speaking up. This is R/C RACING and I'm looking to preserve the RACING as opposed to the direction the hobby is going.

Going back to Soviet & my predicitons, heres a little sketch I made up of what I think an on-road electric RC vehicle's suspension will look like in 10 years. A scaled down pivot ball front end for the front of a 2wd car.
This post explains exactly why you don't like TC racing. You don't understand chassis and suspension setup (evident by the picture you posted). Its understandable though, since the dynamics of TC setup are pretty involved. A poorly tuned TC will be difficult to drive, while a poorly tuned 12th scale will be easier.

It all boils down to whether or not you enjoy wrenching and understanding chassis setup. I love it nearly as much as the racing itself. And if you think about it, we spend much more time in the pits than on the track. But some people only enjoy the racing aspect and understandably will enjoy 12th scale racing better (less wrenching and longer races).

However, money doesn't win TC club races. Locally we had a guy running an old HPI Pro2 in the stock class and he was top 5 every week, normally fighting for TQ and win. TC takes more setup and wrench time, but not necessarily more money.

And those that "throw their money" at TC racing is actually a GOOD thing for the hobby as a whole. More money in the hobby secures the strength of the hobby. Not to worry though, 12th scale will always be around for those unwilling or unable to throw money at racing TC. Its one of the oldest classes around.
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Old 12-10-2005, 08:57 AM   #49
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Moral of the story...run what you want, when you want, how you want, and just have fun...
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:01 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex
Moral of the story...run what you want, when you want, how you want, and just have fun...
WORD.......
Its a hobby and by definition.....ITS SUPPOSE TO BE FUN.........Yes you can be competative and still have fun.....
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:09 AM   #51
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I remember when people used to cry about 1/10 Oval being expensive. Having raced both touring cars and oval, I can tell you that there is no comparison. Touring cars are much bigger money pits than any oval car
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:26 AM   #52
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We have the exact same problem at our track. Sedans are the dominate class, but there are several people who would rather be running 12th. And its for al the same reasons you have stated in here. Cheaper, easier, less maintainenece and set-up. I personally would also rather be racing 12th myself. I am a budget racer who races sedans. I race a (stock) 415 and buy decent 3300's who have moved on to 3800's.....and my tires are not always brand new like the (top) racers at the track.

But even if all the sedan racers suddenly said....Hey lets all race 12th from now on. Dont you think that 12th would get just as bad? The manufacturers would start making a new updated version of the top cars every six months like tey do now on sedans. The top money spenders at the track would buy every new kit and have the highest number packs, and buy motors until they find a screamin fast one. And so on and so on.... Just like it is in sedan racing. But, in saying that....I will say that as hooked up as 12th's are the gap between the budget racers and the money spenders is much smaller. As long as you have the driving skills, you can go real far in 12th.

At my track I am always a 2nd or 3rd place finisher in most classes I ru. And I contribute most of the reason I rarely take 1st is because I dont spend the money like the top drivers. I raced 12th a couple weeks ago with my wore out chunked tires and my tired motor and TQ'ed, got fast lap of the night, and won the A main. OK thats just my 50 cents
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:28 AM   #53
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Oh yeah and as far as (FUN). I have much more FUN running 12th.
But thats just yet another opinion.
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:29 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Somone had commented on why 10th scale pan cars were replaced by 12th scale pan cars.

Im not sure how that got started, but 1/12 cars were, or were one of, the first electric rc cars of any kind to be raced in the US. The 1/10th pan cars got popular for awhile and and have kinda died out, other than in oval racing, but the 1/12th cars have always been around.....
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:48 AM   #55
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Yes , I had a 10th pantoura by CRC for a while and it was REAL fun to run onroad. If 12th onroad wont take off why not 10th pan onroad? I guess they are basically the same thing except you can run 190mm sedan bodies on them (which would be cool).
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:56 AM   #56
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"why race TC's when you can race Pancars?"

Each time I read that sentance it just sounds more and more idiotic (no offence). I race both and I enjoy both.

Why race NASCAR when you can race Formula one?
Why race Funny Cars when you can race go karts?
Why run a marathon when you can sprint?
Why ski cross country when you can ski downhill?
Why knit when you can crochet?

Because you want to. Because it's what you enjoy. Because if you really enjoy it and if it helps you get through the rest of the week, then it doesn't matter how much money you spend on it.

So, my advice is to get over it and race what you want to race. If the class that you want to race isn't supported, then try to get a few friends into racing the class you want to, but don't whine about it. If no one wants to race the class you want to, then that's just too bad, you'll have to change. And if you don't want to change, then you're going to have to just pack up your stuff and go home.

This hobby is about fun, and if you're going to whine all day at the track about how nobody wants to race pancars with you, then you might as well just go home, because I don't want to hear it.

This isn't a discussion about money. This comes down to personal preferance. Some people like racing cars that look like GTP cars (even though they look more like flying wedges) and some people like racing cars that looks like the ones they see on the street.

There is a full scale class of racing for almost every type of vehical out there. And so there will be in R/C.

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Old 12-10-2005, 09:56 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKA
This post explains exactly why you don't like TC racing. You don't understand chassis and suspension setup (evident by the picture you posted). Its understandable though, since the dynamics of TC setup are pretty involved. A poorly tuned TC will be difficult to drive, while a poorly tuned 12th scale will be easier.
I hate to disagree with you, but a poorly tuned 12th scale is nearly impossible to drive...

TC is MUCH more forgiving on setup, as well as for contact. 12th scales HAVE grown better over the years, but tapping a wall and even being slightly out of tweak will make them a struggle to drive...

Therein lies much of the appeal of TC. My TC requires a minimum amount of setup and maintenance. I can show up at the track, makes some minor adjustments...check it out, charge up and go...

We have had a very strong 12th scale class running in this area for years, and I ran 12th scale when it was the only thing to run...but after trying 1/10 touring I just gave up 12th scale....it was way too finicky and required way too much fiddling with the stock parts...with the new front end parts from IRS and CRC you can get away from some of the mold flaws found in the stock AE front end parts, but up to that point in order to get ride height with smaller tires in the front and have suspension blocks that were not off kilter you had to get your 12th scale front end pieces machined (which not every one had access too) with only 4 cells, motors and batteries became even more of a concern in the 12th scale classes than it has been in touring..

with TC minor changes effect the car in minor and predictable ways...even the smallest of adjsutments seems to have a major effect on handling in 12th scale...

That's why I personally prefer 1/10 touring...but I also understand where the allure of 12th scale is...when properly setup and tuned to the track condition for that given run, a 12th scale care responds with such speed and quickness that it can be a blast....but I can get that feeling from my TC too...and not lose it when I tap a wall....
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Old 12-10-2005, 10:02 AM   #58
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Old 12-10-2005, 10:07 AM   #59
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I'm using a Corally CCT at the moment (waiting for parts for my FK05..), and it's a blast!!
I race alongside ordinary touring cars, and it works fine. I broke my first
part at the last meeting.. and that was the first part for a LONG time.. It's super tough!

In GB, they are racing a low-cost class caled Mardave V12. It's a simple 1/12 chassis, with an "ordinary" body on top (Golf/Rabbit, Clios, Mini's and lots of others..). This class looks like great and cheap fun! And they say it's pretty close racing too..

Here's a link:

http://www.mardaveracing.com/kit.htm

Rules:

http://www.stocksbridgercc.co.uk/v12rules.html

I think this is a great way to get people, at all ages, into the sport of rc-racing! It doesn't cost a lot, it's durable, has few parts and suits all levels of racing - amatures and pros.
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Old 12-10-2005, 10:32 AM   #60
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That looks like a fun class bugfreak.

as far as tapping a wall, i would much rather tap a wall with my 12th than my sedan. Sedans are so easy to break compared to a 12th. And you really have to hammer a wall to through of tweak on a 12th.

We started a "fun easy" class last year. Tamiya mini coopers. It started out fun while everyone was figuring out how to dial the cars in. But then everyone spent 2 or 3 hundred dollars on this $95 car to make them handle and get faster. We went by the TCS rules. People were buying several 540 motors to find one that was a little faster than the others. So eventually a few guys who spent the most money were turning 2 more laps than everyone else because they had more motor speed. That class was the giggest class we had last year and now its non-existant. People were tired of not having a chance. No matter how good thier driving was they could never go as fast uless they cough up the cash.

So money ruins even the "spec" "fun" classes.
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