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Old 12-06-2005, 10:26 PM   #31
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OH i guess i just took it the wrong way SORRY

Thanks 4 backn me up LOL
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:33 PM   #32
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If you guys notice something about the AE cars, they aren't as driver friendly as the other cars on the market. They respond too fast for your typical lazy driver and thus they don't like them. If someone is willing to drive them then they are very competitive cars. Not to mention AE was the first company to explore the shaft drive market and are currently the forefront in the market even when everyone else went off and said belts are better. Odds are most people talking about these tcs wouldn't care if AE never released the tc3.
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:35 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soviet
Goes to show how much you know. Especially since Corally based the suspension geometry of the RDX off the TC3.
then why does the corally work?
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:58 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAlz
then why does the corally work?
When you enter 20 cars into a big race, compared to another company only entering 5. Your bound to win more.
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Old 12-06-2005, 11:33 PM   #35
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patry_wagon:

Hi,

I have always found the TC3 a very easy sedan to drive. even the novice class at our track is full of TC3's. my son can put his in the A any time he wants to and either wins or comes in 2nd. the TC3 is a good all around sedan. for hardcore racers and weekend racers alike.
we usally race a XRay (yes we live on the dark side.......Soviet......it's calling you) mostly because we like the way the amount of turn in they have and other features.
as for a belt drive TC4....... I really don't see the need. AE has always been a shaft drive and most likely will be unless TTR has some major changes in mind.

Thanks
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Old 12-06-2005, 11:34 PM   #36
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I remember having to mill my chassis on the TC3 to get the batts close to centerline. Then getting 4 scales to balance the car properly and still having to add 1.5oz of weight next to the motor. Then it handled OK. But it was heavy, and bearings and things wear out too fast.

Still in mod, the car wanted to tweak or "torqu-steer" or whatever you want to call it.

The belt drive cars don't have this problem because of the way the motor is mounted. That is probably why they are "easier" to drive, cause they don't do WEIRD things.

After all my mods, I was pretty fast with my TC3, I though I was the poop.

But I had always wanted an xray, then I had an opportunity to get a nice used one for a good price, so I did. NOT LOOKING BACK. Even though saddle pack is a bit of a hassle (not really much) the car is so balanced, neutral, and fast through the corners, I just LOVE it.

Im not saying anything bad about any other cars (cept I don't car for plastamiya), just that I like a certain car for certain reasons. Even before I drove it I knew I was going to like it for the balance issues and different motor layout that doesn't affect the tweak of the car under acceleration. I'll probably drive my 04 for another year. Its just as fast as the fast 05's at my track. But there is this one TC4 that can give me problems...full factory ride though.
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Old 12-06-2005, 11:42 PM   #37
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I think this is the fifth time I got suckered into reading the exact same thread....It starts off a little different everytime and ends up the same every time like a bad dream, no....like groundhog day
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Old 12-07-2005, 12:39 AM   #38
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Ok so I think...

Shaft drive cars have a mass rotating about the length of the car, and as that mass rotates you have angular momenta. When you turn into a corner the angular momentum of the shaft resists the rotation of the chassis about the plane of the track. (Try spooling up a motor from some low voltage power source and simulate the same with your fingers) However, the extent to which this matters is probably somewhere around the importance of a paint job on handling.
Shafts also make it difficult to get electronics and such toward the center of the chassis.

Belt drive cars have mass rotating about the length of the car, but it is very light. It doesn't cause torque steer or an appreciable amount of the above. Belt stretching I can't see making much of a difference; if a belt stretches enough to cause a loss in acceleration it would probably skip.

And as for drag, when we bench race our cars and spin the transmissions to check for no-load freeness that is ALL that is shown. Belts and shafts act differently in the presence of a load versus no-load (the rotational inertia of different transmissions could also affect it, one with more rotational inertia would spin longer off the track, retain more velocity through a turn, but accelerate slower and the opposite is true for a transmission with less rotational inertia).

But honestly, I would elect to practice more, hit nothing other than the carpet, and worry about this particular issue when you turn laps within a couple tenths of each other lap to lap. (Although I guess I just "worried about it," )

John

P.S. Or just get a 12th scale!
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Old 12-07-2005, 12:56 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Tortorice
Ok so I think...

Shaft drive cars have a mass rotating about the length of the car, and as that mass rotates you have angular momenta. When you turn into a corner the angular momentum of the shaft resists the rotation of the chassis about the plane of the track. (Try spooling up a motor from some low voltage power source and simulate the same with your fingers) However, the extent to which this matters is probably somewhere around the importance of a paint job on handling.
Shafts also make it difficult to get electronics and such toward the center of the chassis.

Belt drive cars have mass rotating about the length of the car, but it is very light. It doesn't cause torque steer or an appreciable amount of the above. Belt stretching I can't see making much of a difference; if a belt stretches enough to cause a loss in acceleration it would probably skip.

And as for drag, when we bench race our cars and spin the transmissions to check for no-load freeness that is ALL that is shown. Belts and shafts act differently in the presence of a load versus no-load (the rotational inertia of different transmissions could also affect it, one with more rotational inertia would spin longer off the track, retain more velocity through a turn, but accelerate slower and the opposite is true for a transmission with less rotational inertia).

But honestly, I would elect to practice more, hit nothing other than the carpet, and worry about this particular issue when you turn laps within a couple tenths of each other lap to lap. (Although I guess I just "worried about it," )

John

P.S. Or just get a 12th scale!

Well with all the belt-drive cars going to a TC3-type layout with the batteries down one side and electronics on the other, I'd say that they gave up their claim to having the most "centered" weight. The XRay FK04 / Evo 2 and even the HPI Pro2 had what could be argued as the most weight-centered layouts ever.

I'd also say that the angular momentum of the shaft is very slight. Think about it...a shaft usually only weighs about .3 ounces. So I'd say the main source of torque-steer would be the motor, which when spooled quickly can give off a rather large rotational acceleration force.

By placing the motor 90-degrees to the chassis, the angular momentum is transfered fore and aft as opposed to a shaft car being side to side.

THATS where the torque-steer comes in.

The one main thing a belt drivetrain gives a designer is choice. Alot of it. You can choose from several different layouts to gain the desired effect. With a shaft drive you only have one real possibility for placement; down the center and high enough to clear the bottom of the chassis with the largest spur you can strap into the car.

Now one layout that hasn't been used in a long time is an offset shaft. Much like the cars that started all this Touring-Car madness, the Tamiya TA-01 and TA-02.
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Old 12-07-2005, 01:11 AM   #40
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Escaped the lab @ PSU eh... Whitmore, Osmond, Wartik?

I'm a freshman there
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Old 12-07-2005, 01:17 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Tortorice
Escaped the lab @ PSU eh... Whitmore, Osmond, Wartik?

I'm a freshman there

Worked for the head of Geosciences, Deike Building 5th floor. Well I was on the 4th.

I have to say I loved the new Technology Building across the street, the one that runs over Antherton St. I used to ride my MTB through there and jump the handi-ramps!

Also...Eat lunch there if you can (Tech-Building). The eatery is suspended over the road and totally glassed in, so it's cool in the summer. It also has a gigantic flat TV that takes up a whole wall with news and such on it.
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Old 12-07-2005, 01:45 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soviet
Well with all the belt-drive cars going to a TC3-type layout with the batteries down one side and electronics on the other, I'd say that they gave up their claim to having the most "centered" weight.
Actually Soviet, you're incorrect there. Whenever you have two unequally-weighted sides (the battery side and the motor side) you can still balance the chassis correctly by how far away the mass is from the central axis of the car.

In essence, by moving the "heavy" side (battery) closer to the centre line of the car, or by moving the "light" side (motor) further away from the centre line you can still achieve an equal left-right weight balance.

This is possible only with belt drive as you are able to move the front belt around to get the cells very very close to the centre, plus move the motor far away from the centre - this is the what is being achieved by the current belt drive layouts.

With a TC3 style layout, the shaft always prevents the cells from getting any closer to the centre, and the relatively small spur gear prevents the motor from getting further away from the centre.

Do you remember the hyperdrive belt system? If someone like AE adapted that to their shaft drive system then the belt length would push the motor further away, thus creating a more equally balanced chassis
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Old 12-07-2005, 02:30 AM   #43
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John Tortorice:

Hi,

I'm not sure if your the guy who skyed the 1-12th scale at Cleveland this year. but if you are DUDE that was AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!
ok back to the shaftie stuff.
my chassis for Cleveland from two years ago has the batteries moved over and down. the battery bars are under the driveshaft. I did this at the track with a dermel tool. lookin for a little more. out of the chassis. I ended up having B.M.I. cut a chassis that way for me. I also moved the servo over and ahead too. the TC3 ended up in the B stock main (3rd) with my son's 3rd year running at Cleveland. new the newer cells you do have to mod the chassis (if your runnig a tub) torque steer was never a problem for us with our chassis (we run mostly stock/19t). my biggest problem with the TC3 is mostly the way the arms were made. (ok i'm older and some things just bother me...............and it's mostly a carry over from full size racing).
the drive train is a sound design. only a few minor problems (again it's just me...............). but they wheel well on the track, I can even get around the track with one without destroying it. my son is fast with one I know of a fast Xray driver who went back to a TC3. and I'm building one again. (and no Soviet I'm not switching back to your side............never will happen).


Thanks
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Old 12-07-2005, 04:27 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soviet
There's a sucker born every minute. Tamiya knows this and now XRay is catching on. I pitty those who buy a new car just because the one they own is now "old."

It boils down to this: There are 2 philosophies in the RC car market...

1. Take alot of time to design a product as well as possible. Release and improve slowly over time.

2. Quickly get design to market. Sell car. Take notes on what works and what doesn't. Release new car....repeat.


Hate to break it to you folks...but you're paying XRay and Tamiya to do their beta-testing for them. I hope Corally keeps the RDX around for a long time and releases small, effective and affordable improvements for it. 'Cause I know thats what Associated is going to do with the TC4.

Come to think of it...if Associated was out to bilk ( <--- Real word) their customers like XRay, we'd be driving TC8s!!!
I agree, just because a company comes out with a new car doesn't mean you have to buy it. Doing that won't necessarily make you win more races. I race an Xray Evo2 until about a month ago (now an FK05) and have no plans on changing to the T2 or any other car in the next year or two.
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Old 12-07-2005, 05:39 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willdp
Just wondering why Associated hasn't come out with a belt car?
everything comes to those who wait.... the world champs are approx 7 months away....
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