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Old 12-03-2005, 11:05 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khan48
what battery matchers match at 35 amps?
EA motorsports matches at 35 amps as well.
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Old 12-03-2005, 12:53 PM   #17
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In my previous post you may have noticed I used the term "standard equipment" to describe our matching machines. We will be the first to admit that there are a number of parameters that cannot be quantified by CE machines that impact the performance of a cell. However, to deviate from using these machines as the benchmark makes it difficult for the consumer to verify the accuracy of our matching themselves on a GFX,etc. Like it or not, the racers judge the accuracy and reputation of a given matcher by their own testing. If the numbers on the cells are very close to the numbers achieved after cycling on a GFX for instance, then the matcher has done their job in the eyes of the consumer. To deviate from this method may be effective in terms of performance, but many times results in confusion and distrust on the part of the customer. There have been many companies that use different matching systems that I'm sure are equally effective, but because the average racer cannot relate the numbers to what they are accustomed to, these companies always seem to be fighting an uphill battle. I am certainly not saying we are right and everyone else is wrong, but there are economic considerations to using equipment that is considered standard.
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Old 12-03-2005, 01:11 PM   #18
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Straight from the case, a battery cell's voltage is somewhat depressed. Cycling it 2 or 3 times as most matchers do allows batteries chemicals to mix and the cell better absorbs energy. We've found 35 amp matching 'wakes' the cells up a bit faster. This might be due to the added heat or even stress put on the cell. TIt seems to typically result in slightly better performance out of the box vs a pack matched at 30 amps.

There are enough matchers using a 35 amp discharge now to make different brands easy to compare... But for the most part, especially now with the IB cells, everyone is selling packs with very similar numbers.

Oh and realize 40 amp matching is not too far off into the future.
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Old 12-03-2005, 03:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GroffBall
EA motorsports matches at 35 amps as well.
I thought EA and Brood cells were just matched by SMC and then they put their labels on it.
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Old 12-03-2005, 03:59 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ike
I thought EA and Brood cells were just matched by SMC and then they put their labels on it.
That's not true, SMC puts the labels on the cells also.
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Old 12-03-2005, 04:11 PM   #21
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Our IB3800 cells are zapped and matched entirely at SMC to our specs.....we then seperate them into packs at our facility.

EAmotorsports has his cells zapped at SMC....he does the processing and matching himself with his own equipment.

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Old 12-03-2005, 05:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony.L
That's not true, SMC puts the labels on the cells also.
It would really be nice if you guys got the facts before you made post like this. I own all my own matchers to do everything in house. As Eddie O said I purchase my cells from SMC and they Zap them for me but that is it. Everything after that is done me Me, Myself and I...I have no employees at all!! It all goes through my hands.

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Old 12-03-2005, 05:40 PM   #23
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Old 12-03-2005, 06:05 PM   #24
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There are a ton of matchers out there,using 35 amp matching there is even one still using 20 amp matching I think.I'll let the track decide what works and what doesn't.Right now I can see no diffrence on the track between a 30 amp battery and a 35 amp battery,matter of fact I have seen 35 amp batteries get out run by 30 amp batteries on several occasions, very recently by me.I don't really cycle my batteries anymore,I just keep track of the # of cycles I put on them,as I've found that fresh cells are a key facor with batteries,so I try to rotate my cells,and keep the freshest cells for racing and the older packs for practice packs.

Last edited by Hyper1; 12-03-2005 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 12-03-2005, 08:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
It would really be nice if you guys got the facts before you made post like this. I own all my own matchers to do everything in house. As Eddie O said I purchase my cells from SMC and they Zap them for me but that is it. Everything after that is done me Me, Myself and I...I have no employees at all!! It all goes through my hands.

EA

I can atest that Erick does his own matching on HIS OWN CE 4/35 equipment.

Quote:
Cycling it 2 or 3 times as most matchers do allows batteries chemicals to mix and the cell better absorbs energy. We've found 35 amp matching 'wakes' the cells up a bit faster. This might be due to the added heat or even stress put on the cell. TIt seems to typically result in slightly better performance out of the box vs a pack matched at 30 amps.
Batteries are an endothermic device...The entire chemical process to deliver energy is based on an endothermic process. It it is not the heat or stress that makes a battery perform better...it is the chemical reaction that creates the endothermic process that makes a battery deliver energy. The HEAT is a bi-product of the endothermic properties. Cycling a battery only starts this process since the manufacturers do not cycle the cells. It is necessary to cycle or zapp the batteries the right way to start the process and STABILIZE the cell. There are other metods to accelerate and enhance the endothermic properties of a battery...That is where battery enengineering, chemistry and physics play a huge role. Knowing how a battery operates internaly can make a big difference in finding good batteries and or take advantage of the inner properties of the cell to obtain the highest energy output, and I emphasize energy output, not voltage. We are limited with what we can do with voltages as that is determined by two factors; battery chemistry and the quality of the electrodes. However, there are methods and procedures that can be done to a battery in order to get better ENERGY output, and that in return can be noticed at the track as SPEED and RIP.
We all know that HEAT is a batteries WORST enemy. More batteries are damaged by excessive heat than any other factor. There is a limit to the continous discharge rate due to this issue.

The way a battery performs is completely different in a car than on a matching machine. We have spent hours analyzing real time current and voltage curves while on a racr car. We have done this with stock, 19T, and numerous different mod winds in order to undersatand better what is happening while we race. Thus, we are finding better and more accurate enhancing/matching processes. The goal is to provide racers with powerfull batteries that will be consistent during an entire race period. It is very easyto manipulate a battery to get higher Vavg numbers, but better performance...NO!!! Voltage alone does not dictate the battery performance.
I know that MOST of not all of you are up on the VOLTAGE issue, but please believe me that there are more important factors that affect performance than VOLTAGE alone. Remember, we are powering motors. Motors have active reactance due to the way they operate. By that I mean that the internal resistance of a motor changes continously. A battery needs to react quckly to this changes in order to provide good power...thats what defines good PUNCH.
I am not stating that voltage is not important because it is, but a few milivolts do not make any difference. There is a higher voltage drop across the electrical system than what you gain from the batteries.
How many of you have actualy tested a car UNDER LOAD and measured the open cell voltage v. voltage at the motor tabs... You would be surprised to see the voltage drop. I have seen cars where the soldering and wiring is so bad that we have measured drops in excess of 200mv across the wiring...YES, 0.2 VOLTS... So we are fighting for an extra 18mv (0.018v) for a 6 cell pack... and at 30+ amps some cars develop up to a 200mv (0.200v) drop across the electrical ststem... The entire electrical system efficiency needs to be taken into consideration, not justs the batteries. This is something that most racers ignore. Improve the efficiency of your electrical wiring, motor, and you will see the difference in performance...

Most of the matchers are producing great batteries because we are getting great batteries from the manufacturers. It us up to the the companies that know enough about batteries to figure out better ways to get that endothermic reaction to its best potential. The means are there to improve the batteries (up to a certain limit) and get better on-track performance. Machines only give us numbers, but the deciding factor is how the batteries as a whole (pack) will behave and deliver the power while racing.

I have seen so many racers damage their batteries by continous testing (charging/discharging) just to see the numbers. If your batteries are working and you are happy with their performance, don't mess with them, you always run the chance of creating irreversible damage to a cell....or droping the power delivering capabilities which will not be detected by theequipmen you are using. It takes much more sophisticated tests in order to detect these changes. Running time and voltage will not tell you that...

In no way shape do I criticize anybodys methods and or testing techniques. Everybody should be able to use the equipment and methods they deem to satisfy their needs. We have taken a different approach whichwe know to be more accurate and in return gives a closer representation of the environment under we operate. Axxis Racing is not selling batteries by the numbers alone...and will not play the numbers game. The goal is to provide our customers with the best possible products. Batteries thatwill deliver maximum power without sacrificing run times...consistent laps is one of our goals. Only the consumer will be able to decide if our products are as good or better than others.

Just like I do not say any NEGATIVE things and respect other companies, I will expect the same respect from others.

Only through innovation and design the r/c industry will advance. Axxis Racing ultimate goal is to do just that. We have the engineering expertise, financial backup, and background to produce new testing techniques and equipment. I know that there is nothing wrong with that. After all, the ones that will benefit at the end are the racers...


Isaac

Last edited by BATT_MAN; 12-04-2005 at 01:17 AM.
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Old 12-03-2005, 10:01 PM   #26
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e

Last edited by Khan48; 07-21-2014 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 12-03-2005, 11:08 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khan48
BTW since we seem to be getting a lot of battery ppl in here how exactly does mathcing increase battery performance? Also what is zapping and how is it done?
Khan48,
I hope this will answer your question.

Matching per say does not increase battery performance. HOWEVER....

By utilizing the right equipment (like TurboMatchers, HES system) and looking for certain characteristics in each battery we can find batteries that will perform better as a pack. THe actual matching process varies if you are using TMs or other equipment, but we are all looking for the same end result; better cells that make a pack. TMs give you basically running time and average voltage [but they take into consideration the PEAK charging VOLTAGE in their calculations] plus a few other figures like mahr, mwhr, and a relative IR reading. Matchers use this criteria to select their batteries and categorize them according to voltage and running time. This is the basic principle of matching. Finding batteries with close to equal tolerances in order to get better performance out of a pack. YOU will always get better performance from MATCHED batteries than from just selecting random cells. The variances are high in capacity (time) and operating voltage from cell to cell (just in the millivolts range <15mv) and a battery pack is only as good as the weakest cell. YOU can have a pack with 5 great cells, but if one is inferior, the pack will perform accordingly to the weakest cell. That is why matching is important and thus you see a better performance against non matched cells. Do not believe the companies that claim that their non-matched batteries are as good as the ones from ANY matcher that does match. There is also a false believe out there that some companies are matching by voltage...If they are testing the cells, they can get much more information to get a good quality pack. VOLTAGE ALONE IS NOT MATCHING...
I am sorry to say this, but that is very deceiving and it hurts reliable companies like SMC, Axxis, ProMatch, Fusion, EA, BrooD, SPC, PolePosition, Etc... that do spend money and time matching cells in order to provide their customers with higher quality cells. Most matchers only use cells that meet set standards and the ones that do not meet this specs are not sold as matched cells. Some of us have other sources to sell these cells so that we do not charge the premium to our customers...We just can't use them for quality matched R/C packs

Now, there are other factors, variables, and figures that we can look at while matching (selecting) cells to find the best cells. By utilizing these factors we can actually find better cells...We (Axxis Racing) look at 5 other variables that define performance...

This is the main reason why we (all reliable matching companies) match cells.

ZAPPING.... Well this will open a can of WORMS...so I will let someone else answer this one or elaborate more.... I have my theories, I do not claim to be CORRECT or to know it ALL, but there are 20+ years of experience behind this science.
The main thing with zapping is to induce a huge amount of energy (MEASURED IN JOULES) into the cell in a very short period of time (milliseconds) in order to alter the endothermic characteristics of the cell. Some zapping methods will show an immediate increase in voltage if you match right after the process. Others preffer to wait and let the chemical reaction that we excite to take hold and hopefully it will alter the cells characteristics by lowering the IR, slightly increase the voltage, and the endresult is more power from the cell...

Our HES process actualy tries to achieve other things within the cell, and this cannot be measured with standard turbomatchers. We can only see the differnce in a cel by performing a very specific test. (track results are also telling us that it is working.) Then we continue with the matching/selection process.

YOu can also do periodic zapping to your cells, but you need to know what you are doing because you can damage them...

I hope this answers your question

Isaac K
Axxis Racing

Last edited by BATT_MAN; 12-04-2005 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 12-03-2005, 11:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
It would really be nice if you guys got the facts before you made post like this. I own all my own matchers to do everything in house. As Eddie O said I purchase my cells from SMC and they Zap them for me but that is it. Everything after that is done me Me, Myself and I...I have no employees at all!! It all goes through my hands.

EA
Thanks for the Clarification, didn't mean to say one way or another, was just trying to get someone to confirm or deny what I had heard..
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Old 12-04-2005, 01:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
It would really be nice if you guys got the facts before you made post like this. I own all my own matchers to do everything in house. As Eddie O said I purchase my cells from SMC and they Zap them for me but that is it. Everything after that is done me Me, Myself and I...I have no employees at all!! It all goes through my hands.

EA
Eric, I was speaking about br00d packs. I know you match your own, please don't take offense.
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Old 12-04-2005, 03:32 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BATT_MAN
I can atest that Erick does his own matching on HIS OWN CE 4/35 equipment.



Batteries are an endothermic device...The entire chemical process to deliver energy is based on an endothermic process. It it is not the heat or stress that makes a battery perform better...it is the chemical reaction that creates the endothermic process that makes a battery deliver energy. The HEAT is a bi-product of the endothermic properties. Cycling a battery only starts this process since the manufacturers do not cycle the cells. It is necessary to cycle or zapp the batteries the right way to start the process and STABILIZE the cell. There are other metods to accelerate and enhance the endothermic properties of a battery...That is where battery enengineering, chemistry and physics play a huge role. Knowing how a battery operates internaly can make a big difference in finding good batteries and or take advantage of the inner properties of the cell to obtain the highest energy output, and I emphasize energy output, not voltage. We are limited with what we can do with voltages as that is determined by two factors; battery chemistry and the quality of the electrodes. However, there are methods and procedures that can be done to a battery in order to get better ENERGY output, and that in return can be noticed at the track as SPEED and RIP.
We all know that HEAT is a batteries WORST enemy. More batteries are damaged by excessive heat than any other factor. There is a limit to the continous discharge rate due to this issue.

The way a battery performs is completely different in a car than on a matching machine. We have spent hours analyzing real time current and voltage curves while on a racr car. We have done this with stock, 19T, and numerous different mod winds in order to undersatand better what is happening while we race. Thus, we are finding better and more accurate enhancing/matching processes. The goal is to provide racers with powerfull batteries that will be consistent during an entire race period. It is very easyto manipulate a battery to get higher Vavg numbers, but better performance...NO!!! Voltage alone does not dictate the battery performance.
I know that MOST of not all of you are up on the VOLTAGE issue, but please believe me that there are more important factors that affect performance than VOLTAGE alone. Remember, we are powering motors. Motors have active reactance due to the way they operate. By that I mean that the internal resistance of a motor changes continously. A battery needs to react quckly to this changes in order to provide good power...thats what defines good PUNCH.
I am not stating that voltage is not important because it is, but a few milivolts do not make any difference. There is a higher voltage drop across the electrical system than what you gain from the batteries.
How many of you have actualy tested a car UNDER LOAD and measured the open cell voltage v. voltage at the motor tabs... You would be surprised to see the voltage drop. I have seen cars where the soldering and wiring is so bad that we have measured drops in excess of 200mv across the wiring...YES, 0.2 VOLTS... So we are fighting for an extra 18mv (0.018v) for a 6 cell pack... and at 30+ amps some cars develop up to a 200mv (0.200v) drop across the electrical ststem... The entire electrical system efficiency needs to be taken into consideration, not justs the batteries. This is something that most racers ignore. Improve the efficiency of your electrical wiring, motor, and you will see the difference in performance...

Most of the matchers are producing great batteries because we are getting great batteries from the manufacturers. It us up to the the companies that know enough about batteries to figure out better ways to get that endothermic reaction to its best potential. The means are there to improve the batteries (up to a certain limit) and get better on-track performance. Machines only give us numbers, but the deciding factor is how the batteries as a whole (pack) will behave and deliver the power while racing.

I have seen so many racers damage their batteries by continous testing (charging/discharging) just to see the numbers. If your batteries are working and you are happy with their performance, don't mess with them, you always run the chance of creating irreversible damage to a cell....or droping the power delivering capabilities which will not be detected by theequipmen you are using. It takes much more sophisticated tests in order to detect these changes. Running time and voltage will not tell you that...

In no way shape do I criticize anybodys methods and or testing techniques. Everybody should be able to use the equipment and methods they deem to satisfy their needs. We have taken a different approach whichwe know to be more accurate and in return gives a closer representation of the environment under we operate. Axxis Racing is not selling batteries by the numbers alone...and will not play the numbers game. The goal is to provide our customers with the best possible products. Batteries thatwill deliver maximum power without sacrificing run times...consistent laps is one of our goals. Only the consumer will be able to decide if our products are as good or better than others.

Just like I do not say any NEGATIVE things and respect other companies, I will expect the same respect from others.

Only through innovation and design the r/c industry will advance. Axxis Racing ultimate goal is to do just that. We have the engineering expertise, financial backup, and background to produce new testing techniques and equipment. I know that there is nothing wrong with that. After all, the ones that will benefit at the end are the racers...


Isaac

Well, you haven't defined "ENDOTHERMIC" in your response, although you used the term over 5 times.

Endothermic I belive means a chemical reaction that takes place that produces heat (or cold) by means of a chemical reaction. Batteries make heat but not by just the chemical reaction alone. The energy created BY the chemical reaction passing through the cells produce heat in acordance to the amount of resistance in the cell. If there we 0 resistance, the heat would also be 0.

Higher load means more current passing through cells, means more heat.
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