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Old 12-02-2005, 01:39 PM   #31
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I agree with those points. I like a universal standard.

At my track, though, we ran as tight of a program as possible, and still got out late. We had 90 to 100 entries on a Saturday night, which obviously took a while.

I say if your track has the time, go for it.
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Old 12-02-2005, 01:56 PM   #32
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Whats funny is people seem to think if we make the races longer, we will be able to make up this extra time by running the races more efficiently.....

Guess what.....been going on like this for a LONG LONG time...it won't just get fixed....what will happen is we will all end up at the track for an extra hour or two....

And making the races 1-2 minutes longer is not gonna bring back the gas guys.....

And the 23t motors are much much different animals than the 27t stuff we use here in the states....

Also, 1/12th scale uses 4 cells....which will discharge slower, plus the motor is at 4.8 volts, so of course its gonna last longer....there is a reason they went from 6 to 4 cells.....made runtime easier to make...oval guys did it to......so did the offroad guys going from 7 to 6, once they figured out it was easier to make time with a 6 cell pack....

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Old 12-02-2005, 02:02 PM   #33
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EddieO,
Are you are trying to say there is no room for improvement between races? And do you start heat #2 racing right after heat #1? No intermission delays?
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Old 12-02-2005, 02:14 PM   #34
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shoot where I race the top five in the A are always within 10 secs of each other. One more minute of racing could really change things.
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Old 12-02-2005, 02:22 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan Aveytia
There's good and bad points that we all have. I personally would like to racing be more inline with japan. We've all had a chance to see 8 min. mod races and 23turn 8 min. races. Our equipment was not designed for 8 min races, not true. Thats the way we set things up. About one car blowing away the rest of the field. That just means everyone else should start practicing more. Where I race, and I know in Socal, there is usually 2-5 cars on the lead lap. Another thing about race days being to long. Ask the race director to run a tighter program. Just like usual, so many r/c people complaining. Don't knock it till you try it. Then you'll find out we have all technology needed to run 8 minutes. I think in california, in 2006 we should hold a 23 turn nationals with rules like they use in japan. My .02 cents.
Japan has also hinted to the fact that they will be lowering the MOD A's back down to only 5 minutes. At this years Nats, they might have ran 12 turn motors in mod but with the timing turned up to 40 degrees. Can you imagine the wear those motors had after 8 minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenport
shoot where I race the top five in the A are always within 10 secs of each other. One more minute of racing could really change things.
I have learned that the fast people are still the fast people when adding time to races, the same people still won, just with a larger margin between them and the rest of the field. I have been racing since the late 80's early 90's, the time when the racing went from 4 minutes to 5 and like I said, the same fast people still win, they do not get slower and the slower people get faster, everyone has to adjust their driving, not just one group.
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Old 12-02-2005, 02:26 PM   #36
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My opinion is, if you add time, you need to add people to the heats and mains to compensate for the added time tot he races. NOT EVERYONE needs to have this change because a FEW want it. HOW many who want this here actually race at NATIONAL LEVEL RACES? If you don't, then you need only to worry on local club races, if you do, then you need to get the majority of participants who race at national level races to agree to raise it up. I still say look at SNOWBIRDS, they still ONLY race 4 minute races with single A mains. If they wanted to they could split it up into two events, one oval and other road and hold it on two different weeks, or just make it even longer, but again, they STILL ONLY RUN 4 MINUTE RACES and NO ONE COMPLAINS about that race at all.
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Old 12-02-2005, 02:40 PM   #37
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T. Thomas, where were you the other 12 hours of the day?
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Old 12-02-2005, 03:17 PM   #38
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Extending races is a terrible idea. Eddie O is right, and as usual is the lone voice of reason. In competitive stock racing the batteries are overpowering the motors already and the motors are coming off radio active hot. People are running fan's in stock for god's sake! The runtime from the packs is great and all, but our stock motors aren't up to it.

Furthermore, we already have crazy voltage wars in stock, if we lengthened the races we'd be having runtime wars too. I'm already buying at least 2 packs per class at a big race. If we have to baby the packs anymore its going to require running your packs less and buying more sticks.

I raced a little oval when I was little during the 80s. We ran 3 min quals and 8 min mains. Debatably the worst idea ever.... wait invading russia in winter was the worst idea ever, or maybe chia head... regardless. You had to have different packs, different motors and different gearing for qualifying and mains.
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Old 12-02-2005, 03:56 PM   #39
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Our local track runs a speed gt series where you can only run 2 door bodies with 19t motors and cs27's.....we run 6 min. heats/mains...IT'S A BLAST!!!
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Old 12-02-2005, 06:20 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason
T. Thomas, where were you the other 12 hours of the day?
I never said I raced there, I just know that it almost runs nonstop from the time the first practice is opened till the last main is run. I like it as a PERFECT example of how making the race longer will add so much time it is unreal.
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Old 12-02-2005, 06:46 PM   #41
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Ed, I am not saying I agree with longer races, but 2 weeks ago my 1/12 broke and not having parts for it I used my sedan against Week's 1/12 scale.
We were the only ones running 1/12 that night. I was down only one tooth from normal race gearing and ran 8 minutes. I was still going strong after 8 minutes. Lap times were not far off after 8 minutes
Incidently, EddieO it was a motor I bought from you. Monster based purple/red 767's. Brushes held up well and yes I do run a fan.
When I finally learned how to gear my motors, heat was not an issue anymore.
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Old 12-02-2005, 07:34 PM   #42
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Yes batteries and motors are getting better each and every year. This is true. However do your tires last longer? Does that caster block last longer for the wall you hit at the 5:30 mark? Does your brush last longer?

I feel that by the motors and batteries getting better this will just attract more racers to race mod which is what I would like to see. I know everyone can not race mod due to the speed. However there is no excuse now that you can not make runtime in the mod class!!

Just my opinion.

Plus if the stock and 19T races were 6 minutes in Cleveland....we would of never finished the race at a decent hour.
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Old 12-02-2005, 08:29 PM   #43
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(3 heats + 1 main) X 5 mins= 20 mins race time on a Sunday
Represents about 20 minutes at the track for every 1 minute on the track racing. Which is like waiting in a ski lift line for 3 hours for each run down the mountain.
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Old 12-02-2005, 10:36 PM   #44
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Whatever you change, there must be an offset to it somewhere. Longer races = larger heats = larger tracks to give more room between cars, not beside the cars. Snowbirds needs to go to the Convention Center where you can run the car almost out of visual range. Vegas has some large(r) rooms I hear – just some have slots on them. :P

This is a performance based hobby. It does not matter what race limits you set up. You still have to get the power you have to the motor and apply it efficiently to the track for x distance, time or otherwise. Heatsinks, fans, pre-race motor chilling, ice, water-cooled, supercooling, its all designed to help the motor perform better. The only difference between 5/10 years ago and now is that there is excess power to run some of these things or its more available to us (purposely designed for our hobby). 5 years ago you did this before the race. Now there is enough power to do it during the race in stock apparently. So the batteries are some how overpowering the motor? I don't think that's how it works. The mechanical load you put on the motor is "overpowering" the motor which you keep dumping current to, arcing(shorting) your brushes , burning out the lubricant in them and burning the wire on the armature also dissipated as heat. If it gets hot enough you unsolder the leads, or fry the armature. In other words, you are geared wrong for the parameters in play. You can change your gear ratio through multiple means (depending what you race) and/or setup to roll through the corner better, or you can cool the motor and continue to abuse it. Which many prefer to do. As for effort, ultimate performance requires what we call the freshy factor. Having your motor perform at best every time you go out to the qualifier. Freshly broken in comm/brush. Tires are the same as noted below. Mod performance accelerates the maintenance. You just translate more current through the brush to the comm. By design it will eat it up faster. Whether you run stock or mod, ultimate performance dictates maintenance no matter the length of the race. When was the last time you raced a motor with 5 runs on it at any recognizable event?
But to Todd's credit - he might be able to run his Orion V2 with the same brush for a little longer. I know I have enjoyed putting 20-30 runs on a V2 style mod motor at the club level with the performance being more consistent from run 1 to run 10 vs standard design. I can only imagine how much further the marketed attributes of a V2 design would put me ahead of somebody of a different design in a longer qualifier. Even if people feel that the motors of like turns do not quite give the same output as standard design. I could put in sprint brushes, given that I’m giving up x amount of runs on it vs enduros, but still more than standard design, or I could step up a wind if I felt it necessary.

All the real size cars have gone to harder compound tires so they last longer. Yet they keep the performance through setup changes. F1 cars have still kept their performance pace despite having harder tires and 30% less down force which planted them on the track harder. Nascar has gone to harder tires, now they just increase camber or change trackbar, wedge, etc to get the car to handle better or blow out the right front usually. Tires are always breaking down from day one, lap one. The minute they are made the oils in them begin to dissipate. Racing accelerates it. Go find an old rubber tire. It usually dry rots after awhile. Whether you race a few extra laps now or in another qualifier they still will not be as good as 2 laps ago. Yeah on lap 3 that cooler tire in a 5 min round 2 qual might give a better lap time than minute 4,5,6 of round 1, but who at the national level considers running the same set of tires all event unless mandated? There are many variables that can help this but most places run spec rubber these days which ends up forcing most to buy more rubber to keep the peak performance of their car. It could be open rule and you would just spend your money finding the combination you like. Either way you will still burn the money.

Foams on the other hand keep their characteristics more consistently in the long run. There are trade-offs of course. They breakdown during the run. They will dry rot if you do not store them properly. Most guys shave majority of the foam off - if that doesn't scream money flush then you can be my deep pocket sponsor - to get rid of sidewall flex which ends up wearing the tire down to unusefulness faster. Thankfully everywhere else still runs rubber on carpet. Nitro on-road is another discussion.
So in any case, performance = wear. Tires are not going to race any better between round x and round y. Only your setup and driving will better your times with the ‘same’ tires or ‘same’ motor. Freshy factor for the win.

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Old 12-02-2005, 10:48 PM   #45
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I was just at the RC10 site in the tips section and some were saying the B4 is good as it is don't mess with it. Having owned several TC3's I like to modify my equipment. If we followed the status quo in this sport we would never have batteries above 1400's and there would be no need for a new car after the original RC10 buggy.

The biggest reason that we have short 5min races is because the batteries were poor compared to today's 3800's. The equipment will hold up to longer races.

I have watched many races that had the best driver in the back at the end of 5minutes because he was punted at the beginning of the race and working back through the ENTIRE field takes a while. Mayfield comes to mind as a PRIME EXAMPLE. Most of the races I see him in he gets punted (no respect I guess) in the first corner and then has to work his way up through the entire field. He is usually in the top 3 of most runs that I have watched. Running down an excellant driver from the back of the entire field shows some great skills. If he doesn;t get punted or break on his own he is the guy to beat at the races I have seen him in. He races with VERY experienced and sponsored racers and the first corner pile up still happens. The staggered start does not cure the situation, the first corner pile up still happens.

At most races extending the time from 5 to 6 or7 minutes would have no effect on the time the race ends. Some huge races may find longer races to be a problem but those races are few and far between.

This would be fun to atleast try.
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