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Old 12-02-2005, 10:40 AM   #16
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The track will have to pay for that somehow - higher entry fees?

Why does it always come to money??? i dont think a min or two is gonna cost a dime...and it shouldnt either!! fees are high enough, DONT BE GREEDY!!
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Old 12-02-2005, 10:45 AM   #17
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You know what, if you can't get the job done in 5 minutes, that extra minute isn't gonna help. I'm quite happy with running 5 minute races and to me there really is no good reason to extend the length.
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Old 12-02-2005, 10:50 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trx1
The track will have to pay for that somehow - higher entry fees?

Why does it always come to money??? i dont think a min or two is gonna cost a dime...and it shouldnt either!! fees are high enough, DONT BE GREEDY!!
Are you goign to pay the track workers for the extra hour that adding a extra minute to each race...Add up that cost...
Even at low wadges $8.00 an hour...Tiems two to three workers that is $16.00-$24.00 more out of there pocket, add it up...That means $1.00 more per entry to cover overhead. Not to mention the electricity it cost to charge packs and the Gas it costs to heat the building longer..BLA BLA BLA..My point was made...
-Stock is for Novice and intermediate...IF your fast than run a 19T and then you wouldn't want the extra minute cause it could hurt you...
-Shookie <><
And when a Top Motor Tuner says to keep it down for equipment wear...
You know he loves this hobby more than his Wallet...cause with the extra minute of high heat...Motors will die quicker and he would make more money...
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Old 12-02-2005, 10:54 AM   #19
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Trx1, are you kidding me?

If the track has to pay an employee to be there for an extra hour or two.....that money has to come from some where....

Tracks barely get by as it is....every dollar really does count for a lot of them....

Later EddieO
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Old 12-02-2005, 12:14 PM   #20
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How about a compromise? I don't see any need for longer qualifiers, especially if you have a staggered start so there is less chance of getting punted initially or later. If you can't get the job done on a fairly open track in 5 minutes, then you won't in 6 or 7 either.

On the other hand, longer mains might be nice. This does add up however. At our local tracks, you usually have Sportsman and Expert Stock, 19T and Mod. If you assume an A and a B for at least 1/2 the classes, then you are looking at 6 mains or an additional 6 minutes per minute of extension, i.e., an extra 6 minutes for 6 minute races, an extra 12 minutes for 7 minute races, etc.

We sometimes run novice as well, but I don't think that needs to be extended.

Ira
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Old 12-02-2005, 12:21 PM   #21
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As an actual former track owner, one that was maxed to capacity every week, I would lengthen mains, maybe to 7 minutes, but not heats. Nitro still runs 5 min heats most of the time, so its not unprecidented. Not that longer heats would be bad, but for us, we just couldn't have fit it in.

Some will say that different elec race times will require different strategies, ie gearing, motor, battery etc. Is that really a bad thing? Most everybody removes motors/shocks/batteries/gears/servos between rounds anyway.

You could still keep novice 5 or 4 min, so no higher level batteries would be needed.

I would think setting up for longer run time would cause you to be conservative, and therfore be easier on equipment. Maybe not.

I know for a FACT that when 3000s and 3300s came out, people were sure it would end the "run time wars", in on road especially. People still make batteries dump; now they just go faster.
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Old 12-02-2005, 12:22 PM   #22
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Won't work either.....the entire setup of the motor and gearing will need to be changed to make the additional runtime at optimal performance.....since no track time at the longer duration will exsist, people will end up having to GUESS on what works.....leading to frustrating main events....

And your batteries won't like the different discharge curves you create by running them different times.......I guess you could have a MAIN pack...

If I had to choose between this and just 1 minute too all qualifiers and mains.....I would choose the 1 minute to everything route...

Later EddieO
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Old 12-02-2005, 12:25 PM   #23
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Ira, I believe we were posting at the same time. You make some good points, sir.

My track was an off road facility, by the way. I race on road myself, so I am familiar with both formats.

It just seems that we might recoup some of the nitro crowd if we offer longer mains as well. I know 7 minutes is a far cry from 45 min or an hour, but its a start.
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Old 12-02-2005, 12:27 PM   #24
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During the TCS Past Champ race, we ran 23T for 8 minutes and had to use two sets of TakeOffs and two hand out unmatched stick packs for four qualifiers and triple mains. Once you figure out motor setup and chassis setup to take care of tires it's hella fun. It can be done.
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Old 12-02-2005, 12:33 PM   #25
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EddieO-

As we all know, the frustration, along side the glory of victory, is what makes motor racing great.

I do not doubt your technical experience with the hobby.

I will say, however, that any changes that might inspire people to hobby who would not have hobbied before, regardless of any slight inconviences to current hobbyists, are wise decisions.

This is the classic motor racing debate, as we can all see. The promoter/organizer sees things one way, the racer/engineer sees things another.
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Old 12-02-2005, 12:36 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
At higher levels of competition......if you get punted in the first level of competition, you will rarely, if ever see that person catch back up....right now, you usually see the top 3-5 on the same lap by the end of the race.....in gas, with 10 minute heats......often yer lucky if the top 2 are even on the same lap....

Besides.....watching a 1/12th scale stock main for 8 minutes is slow enough....especially in qualifying, when nobody is racing really....its PAINFUL....like rectal exam painful.....now we need to suffer watching the sedan guys too?

Sorry, would rather see the closer racing.....with less wear on equipment, tracks making more money, with a shorter race day......



I guess the REASONS are falling on deaf ears....

The only reason I am hearing to change is cause we have more capacity in our packs.....

Later EddieO
Eddie's completely right. I've watched 15 minute gas mains where the leader had a 2 lap lead on 2nd and another 2 on 3rd. It's boring. Like it's been said, one more minute is not going to allow you to catch the leader. Most of the time, there's a reason you're half a lap or more down after 5 minutes. You won't become Superman in the last minute and run him down. Even watching the 1/12 scale in Vegas, the tightest mains were between 2 cars, 3 max after 8 minutes. Most of the other mains were a one car breakaway. That's not fun to do or watch. All our equipment is designed for 5 minute runs, our race day schedules are made up for 5 minute runs. People are already complaining about race days being too long as it is. And now you want to add an hour or two to that?
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Old 12-02-2005, 12:44 PM   #27
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I am all for longer races. I love 12th scale 8 minutes. That rocks! Longer races take more luck out of the racing.

The extreme opposite would be a 4 minute oval, for example. If you get hit by someone and lose a lap or two waiting for a corner marshall, more often than not, there's no hope to regain the victory. However, with a long road course race, you have more opportunity for the better drivers to recover from something unlucky.

In my experience, there is usually PLENTY of time that race tracks can make up in between the races. Most of this wasted time is poor efficiency of the person running the computer. Breaks in between the heats or mains can be reduced or eliminated altogether, and this will not have any effect at all on the time you have to work on your car or charge batteries.

I think we all agree that we enjoy not having battery wars. That has been a very enjoyable change to the hobby over the years. So as long as this doesn't come in to play again, I'm all for extending the time for all classes. I know that I've never had problems with battery run time with 12th scale at 8 minutes. I'm sure that Touring cars could handle more time too.

With the brushless motors coming on the scene, battery run time becomes even less of an issue since brushless motors are more efficient than brushed.
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Old 12-02-2005, 12:49 PM   #28
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Of course, all of this was said once when we went from 4 to 5 minutes. Now 5 is the standard.

I'm not saying 5 is bad. It's a nice, round, unit of time. But don't fear change if it proves to be better. A lot of people though 8 tracks were the pinnacle of audio technology.

The R/C Pro Series Elec is going to run longer races. 6 for mod, 7 for stock, I believe (off road). We'll see how the public reacts.
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Old 12-02-2005, 01:10 PM   #29
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Until our cars are powered by a drop-down AC power cable, there will always be some stiff battery competition at the highest levels, regardless of the race length.

I think I still have the Car Action with the Back Lot article about the impending release of 2000 mah batteries, and how they would end battery competitiveness, lengthen races, put a man on Mars, all sorts of crazy stuff.
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Old 12-02-2005, 01:18 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Kerr
Eddie's completely right. I've watched 15 minute gas mains where the leader had a 2 lap lead on 2nd and another 2 on 3rd. It's boring. Like it's been said, one more minute is not going to allow you to catch the leader. Most of the time, there's a reason you're half a lap or more down after 5 minutes. You won't become Superman in the last minute and run him down. Even watching the 1/12 scale in Vegas, the tightest mains were between 2 cars, 3 max after 8 minutes. Most of the other mains were a one car breakaway. That's not fun to do or watch. All our equipment is designed for 5 minute runs, our race day schedules are made up for 5 minute runs. People are already complaining about race days being too long as it is. And now you want to add an hour or two to that?
There's good and bad points that we all have. I personally would like to racing be more inline with japan. We've all had a chance to see 8 min. mod races and 23turn 8 min. races. Our equipment was not designed for 8 min races, not true. Thats the way we set things up. About one car blowing away the rest of the field. That just means everyone else should start practicing more. Where I race, and I know in Socal, there is usually 2-5 cars on the lead lap. Another thing about race days being to long. Ask the race director to run a tighter program. Just like usual, so many r/c people complaining. Don't knock it till you try it. Then you'll find out we have all technology needed to run 8 minutes. I think in california, in 2006 we should hold a 23 turn nationals with rules like they use in japan. My .02 cents.
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