R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-28-2005, 01:37 AM   #16
Tech Regular
 
BATT_MAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 409
Default

Quote:
For me IB battery is suck because u need to have a Novak SMART tray. Do u want to buy Novak SMART tray for each of your IB batteries ? when u race, u need to discharge + equalize your battery before charging. As u know SMART tray take a long time to discharge a battery. So u might want to have 2 or 3 of SMART tray to help u. This will cost you more on IB battery maintainence. That's why i say IB battery suck !.

If you use a cheap discharge tray, u have to monitor the IB battery until 0.9v/cell. It's difficult to equalize an IB battery using cheap discharge tray (resistor only tray).

Compare to GP, u can use a cheap discharge tray. No need to monitor, cause GP battery can be discharge until 0.0V (all cells equalized). GP battery won't cause you more on battery maintainence.

IB is a good battery in term of it average voltage which is higher compared to GP. But it need a cheaper discharge/equalize tray. Hope someone can make a 0.85V cut-off discharge tray (no need to vary the cut off value). I hope Axxis-racing is doing R&D on this. Novak Smart tray is too expensive. Good luck guys, have a nice day.
RC-Mice,
I am not going to get into anargument here because I respect your opinion. However, let me tell you that you are wrong or just misinformed.

First, you do not need to cycle or discharge the IBs to perform. It is actually better if you do not touch them if you do not know how to discharge batteries the right way.... ( IA M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU...I AM USING YOU AS A FIGURE OF SPEECH, OK!!)

Also, just so that you will know, if you look at a GP3700 discharge curve vs an IB3800 curve, the overall voltage is a few millivolts higher in the GP... The IBs perform better because of other issues, not voltage.
***************
Do you know the real difference between a 1.170 cell vs a 1.199 cell... I will tell you.
ALL MOTORS HAVE A Kv CONSTANT...FOR EXAMPLE, MOST STOCK MOTORS HAVE A Kv OF AROUND 3.7 (3700 RPMS/VOLT) SO HERE IT GOES...A 1.170 CELL WILL GENERATE 4329 RPMS...AND A 1.199 CELL WILL GENERATE 4436 RPMS... A DIFFERENCE OF ONLY 107 RPMS. IN A 6 CELL PACK THAT IS ONLY 642 RPMS...NOT NOTICEABLE...WHEN THE MOTOR TURNS 26640 RPMS AT 7.2 VOLTS... A DIFFERENCE OF ONLY 2.4% a MOTORS PERFORMANCE IS DEFINED BY CURRENT, NOT VOLTAGE...AS LONG AS THE BATTERIES CAN SUPPLY THE NEEDED CURRENT YOU WILL DEVELOP TORQUE, AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES ELECTRIC MOTORS WORK. ALL MOTORS HAVE A Kt CONSTANT...WHICH IS THE TORQUE CONSTANT...A MOTORS TORQUE IS DEFINED BY THE CURRENT IT DRWAS TIMES THE Kt CONSTANT...

As you can see, there is not much difference in performance when we are talking volts. As long as you have good batteries with a good voltage and the batteries can deliver the current requested by the motor the performance will be there. There is a higher voltage drop across your wiring that the few millivolts from the battery. Just measure the voltage at your batteries and at the motor terminals... YOu will be surprised when you will see the voltage drop across the wiring...even badly soldered solder bars develop a large voltage drop, muliply that by 7 and it gets up there....

*********
You are comparing two different issues here...one has to do with battery performance and the other with the cost of dischargers/equalizers.

Let me tell you that the majority of the dischargers/.equalizers out there do not work like they should. The persons that are designing them are not taking into consideration the properties of the new cells. Novak and Tekin are both engineers and their dischargers are better designed than others.

This is not a plug for my products, but Axxis Racing is coming out with dischargers/equalizers that are specifically designed for the GP and IB cells. And yes, they are set at the right cutoff for deep equalization or quick equalization...there are differences.

If you want to use the Integy 030 and get better performance, just open it and cut one of the three resistors in each cell. This will lower the current to a safer level (at 2/3 or around 22 Amps) and you should get better discharge performance...its that simple... If you want to use it to equalize, just cut two of the resistors...the current will still be a bit high (above 10 A), but you will get better equalization at this current level. Our trays will have a voltage cutoff level and will also sound and alarm when the cycle is done, that way you do not have to be watching the tray while you work on your cars at the race track...

Now regarding the batteries that are only getting 600mah..it sound like they are permanently damaged. I do not know where you live, but I will be glad to test them for you if you send them to our offices. We will analyze each cell and tell you exactly what is wrong with them...Hopefully we can help you save your battery pack.

I have said it many times and I will continue saying it...It is better not to discharge or equalize cells if you do not have the right equipment or knowledge. At least if you do not overdischarge, you will not damage the cells.

Also, Axxis Racing works with both GP and IB, and each cell has its merrits, advantages, and disadvatages. But to say that the IBs S... because of the discharge issue is just plain WRONG.

I have been working with and designing batteries for over 25 years...I do know them inside out...and your coments are wrong.

Also, the smart tray is not the ONLY way to discharge IBs...it just happens to be that Novak makes a good discharger (so does TEKIN). Also, to get good equalization from any cell, whether an IB or GP, it takes over 10 hours...you have to do it at a very low discharge rate, otherwise the cells will not be equal... At high currents you do not fully equalize cells... that is wrong information.

To equalize cells you have to do it at a maximum current level of 4 amps and the current should continue droping as the voltage drops...this is the ONLY way to prevent damage and get the batteries to equalize. Once you get down to the 0.3 volt range you do not want to pull more than 150 milliamps in order to get good eq.

Also, there is NOTHING I can do to lower the IR of a damaged cell... I am not a miracle worker... There are techniques to lower the IR of a GOOD cell, but it takes the right equipment to do it since you need to pulsate a current through the cells to achieve this. If your batteries have irreversible damage there is nothing that can be done.

Just try what I told you a few more times to see if the batteries come back to life. Sometimes it can take up to 5 cycles for this to take place...

Good luck

Isaac K
Axxis Racing
www.axxis-racing
BATT_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 03:03 AM   #17
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 27
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BATT_MAN
RC-Mice,
I am not going to get into anargument here because I respect your opinion. However, let me tell you that you are wrong or just misinformed.

First, you do not need to cycle or discharge the IBs to perform. It is actually better if you do not touch them if you do not know how to discharge batteries the right way.... ( IA M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU...I AM USING YOU AS A FIGURE OF SPEECH, OK!!)

Also, just so that you will know, if you look at a GP3700 discharge curve vs an IB3800 curve, the overall voltage is a few millivolts higher in the GP... The IBs perform better because of other issues, not voltage.
***************
Do you know the real difference between a 1.170 cell vs a 1.199 cell... I will tell you.
ALL MOTORS HAVE A Kv CONSTANT...FOR EXAMPLE, MOST STOCK MOTORS HAVE A Kv OF AROUND 3.7 (3700 RPMS/VOLT) SO HERE IT GOES...A 1.170 CELL WILL GENERATE 4329 RPMS...AND A 1.199 CELL WILL GENERATE 4436 RPMS... A DIFFERENCE OF ONLY 107 RPMS. IN A 6 CELL PACK THAT IS ONLY 642 RPMS...NOT NOTICEABLE...WHEN THE MOTOR TURNS 26640 RPMS AT 7.2 VOLTS... A DIFFERENCE OF ONLY 2.4% a MOTORS PERFORMANCE IS DEFINED BY CURRENT, NOT VOLTAGE...AS LONG AS THE BATTERIES CAN SUPPLY THE NEEDED CURRENT YOU WILL DEVELOP TORQUE, AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES ELECTRIC MOTORS WORK. ALL MOTORS HAVE A Kt CONSTANT...WHICH IS THE TORQUE CONSTANT...A MOTORS TORQUE IS DEFINED BY THE CURRENT IT DRWAS TIMES THE Kt CONSTANT...

As you can see, there is not much difference in performance when we are talking volts. As long as you have good batteries with a good voltage and the batteries can deliver the current requested by the motor the performance will be there. There is a higher voltage drop across your wiring that the few millivolts from the battery. Just measure the voltage at your batteries and at the motor terminals... YOu will be surprised when you will see the voltage drop across the wiring...even badly soldered solder bars develop a large voltage drop, muliply that by 7 and it gets up there....

*********
You are comparing two different issues here...one has to do with battery performance and the other with the cost of dischargers/equalizers.

Let me tell you that the majority of the dischargers/.equalizers out there do not work like they should. The persons that are designing them are not taking into consideration the properties of the new cells. Novak and Tekin are both engineers and their dischargers are better designed than others.

This is not a plug for my products, but Axxis Racing is coming out with dischargers/equalizers that are specifically designed for the GP and IB cells. And yes, they are set at the right cutoff for deep equalization or quick equalization...there are differences.

If you want to use the Integy 030 and get better performance, just open it and cut one of the three resistors in each cell. This will lower the current to a safer level (at 2/3 or around 22 Amps) and you should get better discharge performance...its that simple... If you want to use it to equalize, just cut two of the resistors...the current will still be a bit high (above 10 A), but you will get better equalization at this current level. Our trays will have a voltage cutoff level and will also sound and alarm when the cycle is done, that way you do not have to be watching the tray while you work on your cars at the race track...

Now regarding the batteries that are only getting 600mah..it sound like they are permanently damaged. I do not know where you live, but I will be glad to test them for you if you send them to our offices. We will analyze each cell and tell you exactly what is wrong with them...Hopefully we can help you save your battery pack.

I have said it many times and I will continue saying it...It is better not to discharge or equalize cells if you do not have the right equipment or knowledge. At least if you do not overdischarge, you will not damage the cells.

Also, Axxis Racing works with both GP and IB, and each cell has its merrits, advantages, and disadvatages. But to say that the IBs S... because of the discharge issue is just plain WRONG.

I have been working with and designing batteries for over 25 years...I do know them inside out...and your coments are wrong.

Also, the smart tray is not the ONLY way to discharge IBs...it just happens to be that Novak makes a good discharger (so does TEKIN). Also, to get good equalization from any cell, whether an IB or GP, it takes over 10 hours...you have to do it at a very low discharge rate, otherwise the cells will not be equal... At high currents you do not fully equalize cells... that is wrong information.

To equalize cells you have to do it at a maximum current level of 4 amps and the current should continue droping as the voltage drops...this is the ONLY way to prevent damage and get the batteries to equalize. Once you get down to the 0.3 volt range you do not want to pull more than 150 milliamps in order to get good eq.

Also, there is NOTHING I can do to lower the IR of a damaged cell... I am not a miracle worker... There are techniques to lower the IR of a GOOD cell, but it takes the right equipment to do it since you need to pulsate a current through the cells to achieve this. If your batteries have irreversible damage there is nothing that can be done.

Just try what I told you a few more times to see if the batteries come back to life. Sometimes it can take up to 5 cycles for this to take place...

Good luck

Isaac K
Axxis Racing
www.axxis-racing
BATT_MAN,

Thank you for your info on IB and GP. Until now i'm still searching for a cheap tray to equalize IB battery. It is expensive for me to buy 2 or 3 Novak SMART tray to maintain my IB. I hope their will be a tray with 0.9v fixed cut-off/cell in the market soon. Can't wait to see your new designed discharge tray. I hope it will be cheaper than Novak
RC_Mice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 03:31 AM   #18
Tech Elite
 
PitCrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle Indoor Raceway
Posts: 2,129
Default

I am pretty sure the novak tray discharges at something like 2.7 amps.....

Could be wrong.


I want to go back to a diode-resistor (polarized) tray. So, you can put the pack on, it discharges at 1 amp, but when it reaches I believe .6 volts (the voltage threshold for transmission of current across the diode) it stops discharging. But will hold the cells at that level, not letting them rebound. Not sure if a straight diode-resistor circuit would do that as some current may be disapated as heat in the diode even when its not letting (any sort of significant) current pass(say at cell voltage of 5.8...)

Any idea on that?
PitCrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 03:53 AM   #19
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 27
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PitCrew
I am pretty sure the novak tray discharges at something like 2.7 amps.....

Could be wrong.


I want to go back to a diode-resistor (polarized) tray. So, you can put the pack on, it discharges at 1 amp, but when it reaches I believe .6 volts (the voltage threshold for transmission of current across the diode) it stops discharging. But will hold the cells at that level, not letting them rebound. Not sure if a straight diode-resistor circuit would do that as some current may be disapated as heat in the diode even when its not letting (any sort of significant) current pass(say at cell voltage of 5.8...)

Any idea on that?
diode + resistor tray ? I think it's a good idea. If i'm not mistaken a normal diode cannot operate under 0.6v. How to increase the operating voltage to 0.9v ? maybe zener diode can be helpful.

Last edited by RC_Mice; 11-28-2005 at 11:48 AM.
RC_Mice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 04:24 AM   #20
Tech Regular
 
nino_pohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 280
I have IB3600 i charge at CM much more i use delta peak from 03-24 is only get 3200 and the temp 38C. i already dis 25A and tray on novak smart tray.
nino_pohan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 05:11 AM   #21
Tech Regular
 
BATT_MAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 409
Default

Quote:
I have IB3600 i charge at CM much more i use delta peak from 03-24 is only get 3200 and the temp 38C. i already dis 25A and tray on novak smart tray
.

You need to readjust the peak detection level. Your batteries should reach 55C (130F) at the moment they peak...

I have not used the CM charger??? but the peak detection is being detected too low. Readjust so that the batteries peak exactly at 55C. On most chargers the IBs peak at around 12mv for 4 cell and 18-22 mv for 6 cell.

That should get your batteries up to speed and POWER

Isaac
Axxis Racing
BATT_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 05:19 AM   #22
Tech Regular
 
BATT_MAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 409
Default

Quote:
If i'm not mistaken a normal diode cannot operate under 0.6v.
THere are schotky diodes that have different forward bias voltages. There are many ways to detect 0.9Volts...

Its very easy...if you just want to go the diode route you can combine two diodes...an SI and a GE diode in series...that will get you roight around the 0.9 volt level... you can also use a transistor...By setting the right E-B bias you can set the transistor to turn off at any level you want above 0.7 volts....The solutions are endless...How about op amps with a few resistors...you can use them and they are very inexpensive...and effective!

Its very easy to create a good and inexpensive eq or discharge tray. That is our goal. We are doing our best to keep the price under $40...and you wil be able to connect them to a computer via USB...we will introduce an interface that will plug into all our dischargers, so you only have to buy one power interface and see discharge graphs, get mahr ratings and much more...

Just wait and see when we release our discharger boards. They are already in the manufacturing phase and if everything works out we will release them for sale in January.

STAY TUNED!!!

Later,

Isaac
BATT_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 10:23 AM   #23
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 158
Default

........

Last edited by cr250; 10-19-2013 at 04:15 PM.
cr250 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 10:30 AM   #24
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 158
Default

........

Last edited by cr250; 10-19-2013 at 04:14 PM.
cr250 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 10:35 AM   #25
Tech Regular
 
loopedeloop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Whangarei Newzealand
Posts: 490
Default

Thats great advice isaac

Its good to see the reason behind the theory, keep it up
loopedeloop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 11:02 AM   #26
Tech Regular
 
corradopsi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: pa
Posts: 329
Send a message via AIM to corradopsi
Default

hey guys, thanks for the crash course in battery care
__________________
Mine: Nomadio Sensor; T2'007, Keyence, Express; ZX-5 SP, Mamba Max; XB8, OS V-spec and NR P5; ProBoat Shockwave 36
My Son: Futaba 3PM; T4 RS; Clodbuster; TT-01;Zig-Zag racer
corradopsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 08:54 PM   #27
Tech Regular
 
nino_pohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 280
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BATT_MAN
.

You need to readjust the peak detection level. Your batteries should reach 55C (130F) at the moment they peak...

I have not used the CM charger??? but the peak detection is being detected too low. Readjust so that the batteries peak exactly at 55C. On most chargers the IBs peak at around 12mv for 4 cell and 18-22 mv for 6 cell.

That should get your batteries up to speed and POWER

Isaac
Axxis Racing
I just set deltapeak 24 mv but is same. the cm peak cut too. help me....
nino_pohan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2005, 11:05 PM   #28
Tech Regular
 
nino_pohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 280
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BATT_MAN
THere are schotky diodes that have different forward bias voltages. There are many ways to detect 0.9Volts...

Its very easy...if you just want to go the diode route you can combine two diodes...an SI and a GE diode in series...that will get you roight around the 0.9 volt level... you can also use a transistor...By setting the right E-B bias you can set the transistor to turn off at any level you want above 0.7 volts....The solutions are endless...How about op amps with a few resistors...you can use them and they are very inexpensive...and effective!

Its very easy to create a good and inexpensive eq or discharge tray. That is our goal. We are doing our best to keep the price under $40...and you wil be able to connect them to a computer via USB...we will introduce an interface that will plug into all our dischargers, so you only have to buy one power interface and see discharge graphs, get mahr ratings and much more...

Just wait and see when we release our discharger boards. They are already in the manufacturing phase and if everything works out we will release them for sale in January.

STAY TUNED!!!

Later,

Isaac
Batt_man, can you give me diagram to make this stuff. you can email the diagram picture to [email protected] Thanks
nino_pohan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2005, 08:48 AM   #29
Tech Elite
 
Mr. Shookie's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Wilderness
Posts: 4,711
Trader Rating: 9 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Shookie Send a message via MSN to Mr. Shookie
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BATT_MAN
Also, IBs do not like to be brought down all the way to 0 volts. We found that 0.6 volts sems to work OK, and if you want to perform a complete equalization if the cells it has to be done at rates no higher than 4 amps.
Isaac
Axxis Racing
www.axxis-racing.com
I disagree....
Granted you have a better understanding of the phyisics side of things but my track testing says different.
The newer batches of IB 3800 cells are better.
I have been Dead shorting for a while now and yes the first few batches of the IB3800's did not like to be DS (deadshort) the IB3600 were know for this as well.
I have five newer packs and the they handle being DS'd just fine, better infact than my GP3700's.
Granted if you do DS you will permenatly loose runtime from the very first time you DS.
What I do notice is that you must keep a regime that is consistant.
Here is a quick run down of how I care for my 3800 packs.
After racing them I do the following
Put the pack on a Spintec Battery Manager till it is finished Votage cutoff around 5.0V.
Then let the pack rest for at least an hour.
Put the pack on a DS tray...I use the Much More Zero V trays
Leave it on there for three hours or until a volt meter reaches 0.03 or less
Than I connect a wire from + to the -.
Remove from tray and store till next use. unless there is a long break in between races.
When I am ready to charge I use a Much More Cell master and charge it with a set charge program like this..
(Step 1)
7.0amp charge
Peak lock out
cutoff at 2950mah

(step 2)
.2 amp charge
Peak lock out
cutoff at 3000mah

(step 3)
6.5 amp charge
Peak set at .3
cutoff 4400 mah

My packs charge up to around 4200-4400mah and come off the charger at 118*F.
Now granted this regime isn't easy but it works for me for STOCK AND 19T motor racing only...
AGAIN Dead Shorting is not adviced for Mod motor racing as it kills runtime.
Oh just for information
The packs come off the track with 1400-1700mah left from running stock & 1000-1400mah left from running 19T so runtime really isn't an issue.
I hope that explains that IB can handle being discharged lower than .8v per cell.
You just have to make sure you maintain them the right way.
My .02
-Shookie <><
__________________
All who love the LORD JESUS I praise with you.1 Cor 10:31
Team HOLY Rollers (Team Manager)
The Church is a Hospital for Sinners not a Museum for Saints.
RcTech Feedback <>< RC Tech Subcriber #92
Mr. Shookie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 02:21 AM   #30
Tech Apprentice
 
cyber3d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 92
Battery thread revival

Is my method typical or am I just asking for ruined batteries?

I use Intellect SC3800 6 pack in series configuration (side by side)
Pulsar Comp2 charger
LRP Concept Battery Conditioner
Integy Indi Zero-Thirty discharger

My process:

Remove pack from car
Discharge 6pack @30amps until white LEDs go out, (about 10min), immed remove pack
Condition pack until red LEDs go out (about 10min)
Store pack in a cool place

Next weekend:
Condition pack until red LEDs go out.
Charge pack at 5.0amps/DeltaPeak 30mV/no trickle/linear mode/4700mAh**
Race then as above

** that it charges to 4700mAh and does not stop worries me. Isn't that too high? It's a 3800mAh pack. Or should I let the charger go until it automatically shuts off?
cyber3d is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
tekin battery doctor 8.0 & fk05 battery brace xxblackheartxx2 Australia For Sale/Trade 0 04-02-2008 01:33 AM
Hakko 936, Spintec battery manager, Ko Ex-10, Spektrum Pro, tekin battery doctor Breeze R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 2 12-08-2007 09:47 PM
33 Promatch 3300 NIMH battery cells and Battery Case nitro468 R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 10 08-06-2007 05:21 PM
FS: New Lipo battery 8000mah 7.4v fits in most battery trays aussiebuddha Australia For Sale/Trade 0 11-22-2006 03:23 PM
10 6 cell battery packs, 3 stock motors and 2 sakio battery cases $52.00 ??? bigoTC3fan R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 1 09-22-2004 06:07 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 07:00 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net