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Old 11-19-2005, 07:50 PM   #31
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Syndrome- you're right battery matchers do make thier money in seperating a 5 to 10% varriance in batteries. The claim that they're making " a ton of money" may be a strech. If we go LiPo guys will find ways to make those better, and all competition cars would have to be redesigned cause of the shape and weight of the batteries. How would that effect cost to the "average" guy

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Old 11-19-2005, 08:09 PM   #32
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Well at the end of the day,it's a money thing.Everyone wants it.Produce a cell,wait a couple of months,produce new rule for another new cell.(1mm longer)It's all B.S.
Business scam for us to spend our hard earned cash(that everyone wants!!)
Whip open your wallet everyone...get ready to spend,spend,spend on those new cells!!!
We all should of seen this comming.
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:15 PM   #33
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I am hardly a naysayer in new technology.....

Lipo fans (and typically brushless fans) have this weird dillusion about their technology leveling the playing field....when it won't.

Mark my words, one day.....we will be all runing some type of lithium cell....or who knows what.

However.....no battery, regardless of what chemical you use is created equal.....doesn't matter WHAT type it is....some batteries will ALWAYS be better than others.....

This is what will happen.......

Lithium battery gets accepted......<insert name here> battery matcher figures out a way to analyze the batteries, thus being able to seperate the cells for sale to the customer.......<insert name here> battery matcher figures out how to extract more peformance from said battery through <insert name of process> here......thus creating more high performance cells....and guess what? All of us buy them.....why, because thats how this works....

Guys like Danny or whoever will figure it out....just watch. Companies like Competition Electronics will invent matching equipment.......its just the nature of the beast....

I have tested many many Lithium type batteries....I bought 5 indentical thunder power packs about a year ago....each pack performed different. I was able to figure this out with just a multi-meter....some packs simply had more runtime....other packs had a better voltage curve over the discharge....

These are the things that seperates a pack.....and the Lithium companies will even tell you there is going to be production variances on the cells.....and there always will be.

My statement about the new Lithium Magnesium means nothing more than it doesn't help a technology getting accepted when it keeps changing.....same thing with brushless, when you get rules that basically prevent 3 big companies from having legal motors (hacker, etc)....

And I have not even started the arguement about how the cells are currently configured would require a complete redesign of many many RC Vehicles...something thats not as simple as just adding weight.....

Hardly a naysayer.....just a realist....

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Old 11-19-2005, 08:15 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-Kyle
Well at the end of the day,it's a money thing.Everyone wants it.Produce a cell,wait a couple of months,produce new rule for another new cell.(1mm longer)It's all B.S.
Business scam for us to spend our hard earned cash(that everyone wants!!)
Whip open your wallet everyone...get ready to spend,spend,spend on those new cells!!!
We all should of seen this comming.
I agree, i just had to buy 3700's when i wanted 3300's, i dont like there size, and i dont need the run time!
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:18 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintingRoly
Syndrome- you're right battery matchers do make thier money in seperating a 5 to 10% varriance in batteries. The claim that they're making " a ton of money" may be a strech. If we go LiPo guys will find ways to make those better, and all competition cars would have to be redesigned cause of the shape and weight of the batteries. How would that effect cost to the "average" guy

Roly
Yea, a "ton" isn't fair, but it's a situation that's definitely inflated the cost of batteries for any racer serious about competition, even at the club level. It's not clear to me how this is beneficial to anybody but people who make the batteries, and people who match and sell them. That's the same case for motors, with all their tuning options. The promise of more consistency in future technology is good for racers, and bad for tuners. So, forgive me if I react poorly when the most vocal against said technology are those with the most to lose when it succeeds.

I guess we'll file the fact that those people are always quick to say "hey, I'm not just saying this because I'm in the business" under extreme irony.

I don't doubt that people will find ways to create a similar situation with new technology, but it will get harder to do, and the advantages gained will shrink to a point where they're not as important to beginners and club racers. The new technology on the horizon is a step in that direction. You guys always talk about what's wrong with R/C. What's wrong is that a lot of people lack vision, and a lot of the smarter people are too busy trying to make a buck than actually take an unbiased approach on what's right for the hobby and its consumers.
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:20 PM   #36
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3700 and 3800 cells both met the 43mm size requirement.....IP is the cell thats too big....

I measured 20 IB cells from my last batch, they all come in under 43....as do the GP3700....

Some cells will swell as we use them....around .1 to .5 mm...

The IP cell samples I got, which were totally raw......all measured 43.4-43.7....they swelled around .1-.3....

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Old 11-19-2005, 08:27 PM   #37
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Oh ya....One more thing....
Break out those files,Dremels and whatever else everyone uses these days to get those damm batteries in your cars.
Nice to know that you just spent upwards of $500.00 bones on a top of the line car just to carve the chassis like a Christmas Turkey to get the batteries in.
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:27 PM   #38
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I suppose the hope is that while we can't eliminate variance in cells, we can mitigate its effect on racing. Same with motors, and anything else where more money can potentially mean more performance.

Eddie, unfortunately, you're probably right. Many of us hope things don't play out the way you've suggested, but if history is any indication, we won't be that lucky. Presumably, at some point, technology will improve and solve these problems, but it's not clear if that will happen in the near future.

I applaud you for examining LiPo's, and new technology in general. I would be interested to see of a tuner such as yourself could find ways to tune brushless motors to some great effect. Doing so would put the argument about brushless being a great equalizer to rest once and for all.

Maybe we should form our own damn committee, and form our own set of rules in the greater interest of the hobby and its racers, and not the companies involved. We could give it some cool name like the "Open R/C Club Racing Standard" and encourage local tracks to adopt those rules. We could ensure they're mostly backwards compatible with the rules used at large events so club racing isn't so different that it's useless for practice for larger events. We could try to equalize things somewhat, and find a way to embrace new technology while not putting older technology at an unfair disadvantage.

And then suddenly, it's more clear why this is all so difficult to regulate. *sigh*
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:28 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-Kyle
Well at the end of the day,it's a money thing.Everyone wants it.Produce a cell,wait a couple of months,produce new rule for another new cell.(1mm longer)It's all B.S.
Business scam for us to spend our hard earned cash(that everyone wants!!)
Whip open your wallet everyone...get ready to spend,spend,spend on those new cells!!!
We all should of seen this comming.
I dont know why everyone is getting there panties in a bunch. Its no big deal. I have been into R/C for 20 some years (racing for 16) . I used to use 1200Mah yellow nicads back in the day Then came the red cells then the black 1700, 2000, 2400. 3000 and so on. its called progress (sp) The cells of today have so much voltage and run time its Insane. This so called scam is nothing new. Out with the old and in with the new. The choice is yours if you want .

I imagine That cell phones, Ipods and everything else we take for granted are scams also
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:31 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-Kyle
Oh ya....One more thing....
Break out those files,Dremels and whatever else everyone uses these days to get those damm batteries in your cars.
Nice to know that you just spent upwards of $500.00 bones on a top of the line car just to carve the chassis like a Christmas Turkey to get the batteries in.
I here that one!
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:32 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howard hudson
I dont know why everyone is getting there panties in a bunch. Its no big deal. I have been into R/C for 20 some years (racing for 16) . I used to use 1200Mah yellow nicads back in the day Then came the red cells then the black 1700, 2000, 2400. 3000 and so on. its called progress (sp) The cells of today have so much voltage and run time its Insane. This so called scam is nothing new. Out with the old and in with the new. The choice is yours if you want .

I imagine That cell phones, Ipods and everything else we take for granted are scams also
At least the scam doesn't cost as much as it used to.
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:43 PM   #42
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All the hobbyest were crying that they wanted more run time and power. They get it then they start to whine about it. I just dont understand Whats next you all gonna cry and say the new stock motors are to fast I cant keep up with my old ones . DAMN !! suck it up !! conform to change !!!!!
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:58 PM   #43
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So, back to the issue at hand. Let me see if I've got this right.

IB and GP has been working with ROAR to limit the size of their cells so they fit within the current rules scheme. ROAR increased that size, basically to give their competitor (IP) the ability to use their cells in R/C as well. IP, unlike the other two companies, was unwilling to compromise on their cell size, so instead, ROAR changed the rules to accommodate them. Is that about right?

How does that look to IB and GP, who have apparently been loyal to ROAR by making cells to fit within their rules scheme?

I guess that guy from Pole Position will be happy now.
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:58 PM   #44
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Funny, how when the G3300 first came out, they were illegal, but under this new rule they would have never had to go back and change their case dimensions. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
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Old 11-19-2005, 09:09 PM   #45
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Whereas I do think that Kyle is sometimes quick to over-react, he DOES bring up a very significant point about the increase in the cell size limit wreaking havoc on our cars as they need to be modified, dremeled etc in order to allow the inevitable new cells to fit.

This is truly unfortunate for use the racer.

The current GP3700 and IB3800 cells already haev more than adequate capacity and fantastic voltage.

Other companies were free to design within the same alloted parameters.


As far as the first comment goes, though, the LAST thing that GP or IB will want to have to do is redesign their cells to the new dimensions, but they will be forced to in order to keep up with other customers that are pushing the lmiits on this boundary. Making changes to the batches, processes and tooling require large investments by the manufacturers, and also runs the risk of devaluing their current cell inventories....

For ROAR to change the accepted standard for cells 2 months after the approval submission deadline is ridiculously irresponsible and unfair to the manufacturers who worked hard to optimize their designs within the boundaries of the published standard prior to submission.
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