Go Back  R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road
Getting past the wall >

Getting past the wall

Getting past the wall

Old 02-08-2016, 10:01 AM
  #1  
Tech Champion
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,918
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default Getting past the wall

Well, I've gotten to the point where I can tune my car, give it to a fast guy and it sets fast lap. I can then take the same car and run it for 10 or 12 minutes running the same lines and keep it off the pipes. I can run unmarshalled races. But, I seem to have run into a wall on getting faster. On our current track, the fastest average is around 18.5 seconds for an 8 minute race. I can only manage 19.0, but I run very consistent lap times. I can see the corners I'm getting beat into and out of, but am having a hard time duplicating the fast guys technique.

So, what I'm asking is: How did you get past the wall when you hit it?
liljohn1064 is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 11:22 AM
  #2  
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 49
Default

I'm learnign set up. but fast guy can alway run my car faster. I'm pretty decent driver. but lately i feel the way to get faster is more laps. More pract and more track time. Is realisically the answer
XCRAZYBENX is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 11:29 AM
  #3  
Tech Master
iTrader: (21)
 
bshookup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 1,640
Trader Rating: 21 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
Well, I've gotten to the point where I can tune my car, give it to a fast guy and it sets fast lap. I can then take the same car and run it for 10 or 12 minutes running the same lines and keep it off the pipes. I can run unmarshalled races. But, I seem to have run into a wall on getting faster. On our current track, the fastest average is around 18.5 seconds for an 8 minute race. I can only manage 19.0, but I run very consistent lap times. I can see the corners I'm getting beat into and out of, but am having a hard time duplicating the fast guys technique.

So, what I'm asking is: How did you get past the wall when you hit it?
That is a great question, and we've all been or are currently stuck there. The likely most accurate answer is practice and patience. Unless they are naturally gifted, most of the fast guys became fast over a number of years. It takes time.

To speed things up, I think it benefited me to bounce back and forth between off road and on road as well as trying out different on road classes once in a while. I believe that this "cross training" taught me different skills, and sometimes practicing/racing in low traction has helped develop car control skills.
bshookup is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 11:30 AM
  #4  
Tech Master
iTrader: (27)
 
Dan Hamann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 1,024
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Default

The most common thing I see is people overshooting corners. Not to say that I have mastered anything, but the biggest thing that has allowed me to pick up pace in the last year has been reaccessing my throttle and braking points, basically backing up the apex to allow myself to get onto throttle earlier.

One thing I learned from a few of the top off-road guys a few years ago always stuck, too. Basically, I was told never have your throttle at neutral. You should never be hovering at neutral, you should always be applying brake or throttle to alter the attitude of the car. After a few months of trying this it allowed me to depend less on drag brake and more on push brake, which in turn gave me faster, more consistent lap times.
Dan Hamann is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 12:02 PM
  #5  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,495
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Over hesitation is usually the biggest laptime killer...
bertrandsv87 is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 12:35 PM
  #6  
Tech Champion
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,918
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by bshookup View Post
That is a great question, and we've all been or are currently stuck there. The likely most accurate answer is practice and patience. Unless they are naturally gifted, most of the fast guys became fast over a number of years. It takes time.

To speed things up, I think it benefited me to bounce back and forth between off road and on road as well as trying out different on road classes once in a while. I believe that this "cross training" taught me different skills, and sometimes practicing/racing in low traction has helped develop car control skills.
I've got the offroad gear and should practice more. It seems like most of my track time is dominated by practice, but if I'm just reinforcing bad habits it defeats the purpose. Getting someone to run with me and tell me where I could change corner entry and acceleration points is something I try to do, but a lot of my fellow racers are usually trying to improve their cars. I'll keep putting in the time though. Practice is fun and helpful. I have improved greatly over the last year.
liljohn1064 is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 01:04 PM
  #7  
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 133
Default

Practice is indeed very important, but make sure you're practicing deliberately. The gist of that article is:
  • Don't get stuck on mindless autopilot
  • Define a problem and work out a solution
  • Make observations and take notes
Bracket is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 01:20 PM
  #8  
Tech Champion
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,918
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Bracket View Post
Practice is indeed very important, but make sure you're practicing deliberately. The gist of that article is:
  • Don't get stuck on mindless autopilot
  • Define a problem and work out a solution
  • Make observations and take notes
Good choice of words: Deliberate. I think (know) I've spent a lot of time taking advice on setup and it shows. Next time out I need to hunt for the fastest way around each of the corners I'm losing time in and make notes. Once in a while I surprise myself, but then fall back into routine lapping.
liljohn1064 is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 02:06 PM
  #9  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: My house.
Posts: 3,567
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

If the faster driver is posting faster times than you, your driving is at fault.
Sometimes to get through a corner the fast way you have to take the previous a different manner. Don't focus on one corner but the majority of the track, divide the track in three sections for example and see where you are loosing ground. As you seem five tenths above the pace you are not enough on the throttle or too much on the brake, refrain to coast as much as you can.

Other thing they could be overcoming a setup flaw with their driving skills, and what is drivable to them could be too safe to you, try a couple cars at the track if they let you drive. Test some changes to overcome your limits (think A. Senna).
30Tooth is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 02:08 PM
  #10  
Tech Master
iTrader: (21)
 
bshookup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 1,640
Trader Rating: 21 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
Good choice of words: Deliberate. I think (know) I've spent a lot of time taking advice on setup and it shows. Next time out I need to hunt for the fastest way around each of the corners I'm losing time in and make notes. Once in a while I surprise myself, but then fall back into routine lapping.
To illustrate your point: A couple weeks ago at a club race I noticed that the driver next to me gained a bunch of time on me at the first corner at the end of the straight. He has a lot more experience running mod 1/12 scale than I do, so I asked him what he was doing to get around that first corner and if he was using drag brake or push brake. He said he uses push brake and starts the turn really wide, wider than a "sedan line." So, I followed his advice and now get around that corner much faster.

Two days ago during practice, I noticed someone consistently gain on me at one point in the track. I pulled over and just watched him for a few laps. I noticed that he was almost straight -lining that part of the track from apex to apex. I was driving a big arc around a visual corner and had not noticed I could almost straight-line it. Now, I'm faster at that part of the track.

Race On
bshookup is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 02:11 PM
  #11  
Tech Regular
iTrader: (4)
 
bdmpastx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pearland, TX
Posts: 472
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

I literally just posted something like this on my instagram. Showing the different lines through a "S" and you can see where the car is losing speed and taking a longer lap.

Cutting the track down in the corners makes the track shorter. If you overshoot 3-4 corners, that ads about a 20ft longer track per lap. That all adds up over the 6 or 8 minute race. The skill is to shorten the track as much as you can without crashing.

You can see what I am talking about on my instagram video. Just search for bdmpastx.
bdmpastx is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 02:34 PM
  #12  
Tech Elite
 
niznai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: All over the place
Posts: 2,974
Default

From your story it sounds like you haven't figured out the quickest way around your track. Which seems surprising because in one year of practice you must have had a fast driver racing you (one of those guys with the 18.5 second lap average). That was your chance to see the quick way around the track if you can't figure it out for yourself, and then is just an exercise in trying to follow that line.

Try to chase that guy next time he shows up.

And if your car can't keep up, check your gear.

If your gear is good, then check your setup.

If your setup is good, it's your hand, there's no two ways about it.

To train "the hand", test and tune days are brilliant.

Practice, but make sure you have the lap times announced back to you live, so you can start to develop a feel for a good lap and a crap one. I am sure that even a mediocre racer (like I am) can tell what is a good lap and what is a crap lap by just watching their cars, but that is because we have been through the experiment as above.
That is why these practice days are worth a lot more than race days. If you are organised you can turn maybe 500 laps in one day of testing versus maybe 100 in a race day. And you know what you've done on each lap, so you can learn how much time is going to cost/gain you if you do that or the other. That way, you don't need someone to babysit you. Your lap times will speak for themselves.

And about setup, I think you need to learn to set up your car such that you are fast with it, not someone else. You're going to be driving it, right? Nothing wrong to check by asking someone else to drive it, but keep in mind your setup might not be to someone else liking and it doesn't have to be. It doesn't mean it's wrong, and if you're fast with it, then it's definitely not wrong at all.
niznai is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 03:19 PM
  #13  
Tech Champion
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,918
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

My handing the car off is usually after I run a better faster average time than previously and can get to within a couple tenths for fastest lap. With them driving it, I can also take a look at the handling without having to concentrate on the driving. The advice that's given once the other driver gives input is taken with a grain of salt as they are not me. I'm mostly look for push, off and on power steering and excess body roll. I know I'm still improving and I can see it, but it's down to fractions of tenths per lap that I'm shaving off. I ran six 8 plus minute runs last night, but was concerned more with timing and gearing and cornering. The car is awesome, SpeedMerchant WGT Four R, and I finally have it dialed in after practicing with it for a couple of weeks. I have yet to race it. Regardless of the car or the class though, my trend of being just out of the lead pack and edging closer continues.

I think next is to get out of my head and just play with corner entry speed and clean up my lines even more. I am working on not coasting at all and either being on throttle or using push brakes.
liljohn1064 is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 03:42 PM
  #14  
Tech Elite
 
Skiddins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Windsor, UK
Posts: 4,944
Default

I've raced at meetings in the UK and ended up in the same heats sometimes as Elliot Harper and Andy Moore, and what I notice from video's and my headcam, is how much smoother they are.
Most of the time their cars look almost slow compared to the rest of us, but the lap times never lie

I think it's far too easy to 'overdrive' around a circuit and consequently try to carry too much speed etc into a corner.
At the ETS in Germany, you notice just how much the blinky drivers do brake at hairpins etc, they don't necessarily just try to smooth it all out with max corner speed etc.
Skiddins is offline  
Old 02-08-2016, 04:01 PM
  #15  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Oxnard, CA
Posts: 6,249
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Back when I used to race every weekend I noticed that I'd hit a wall every once in a while but by keeping at it, after a couple of months I'd get faster without noticing or changing anything. Its muscle memory, and consistency. After driving consistently at a certain pace we learn how do go a little deeper and how to accelerate a little sooner without thinking bout it. Just keep driving and eventually your pace will improve without you doing anything. You'll get faster at different corners at different rates.
nitrodude is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.