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Old 11-16-2005, 12:14 AM   #1
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Default Time to change stock motor rules

Is anyone as fed up as I am that there are so many cheaters in stock. I think that it is time to change stock motors to allow adj. timing, bearings and hand wound arms so that the cheaters lose most of the easy cheats to use against those of us who play by the rules.

Its bad enough that some racers adj the timing on the stock motor for more power but we have some motor companies twisting the com to advance the timing that you can buy at the LHS.

I think that there are 2 big reasons that many new RC racers leave RC racing cheating and hacking. Stock class cheating can be greatly minimized by changing a few rules. Getting rid of hacking will take some track operators to get their heads out. If the track operators realized that they are losing alot of racers and customers in their shops because they allow the track bullies to tear up others racers cars for fun , they would address hacking immediately.

What do you guys think will stop the cheating and hacking?
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:25 AM   #2
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Maybe it's different in your part of the world but I find it hard to believe that there is such a large amount of cheating in Stock - which is what it appears like judging by the number of threads about this kind of topic.

You mentioned comm twisting - that is easy to spot for any decent scrutineer so I don't think that would be an issue, nor would radical brush hood changes - again - easy to spot.

The idea of adjustable timing and hand-wound stock motors would simply put the price up. Would you be prepared to pay Mod prices for a stock motor thats still pretty damn slow?

I would allow bearings (we do where I race). Bearings improves the motors life, and they are cheap and readily available, and if they were legal then thats one less thing to scrutineer

As for cheating / hacking in general - unfortunately it's part of the hobby. There will always be some willing to go to these lengths to win.
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:26 AM   #3
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Which companies are twisting comms?
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:30 AM   #4
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A few rotten apples will always be around, regardless of what rules you have.....people will always look for a way to get the edge...

I can tell you, as one of the top 3 OEM accounts at Trinity, that I have NEVER twisted a comm on stock motor I sold or used at any type of organized race.....none of my employees have done it either....nothing is done to the motors that is not allowed under the rules.....

We will gladly take a lie detector test.....and pass it with flying colors.

The only time I have ever twisted a comm in the last ten years, was just to prove it could be done, but would be easy as hell to spot....(I of course, proved my point)....

The comm locks give very little play....simply not worth the effort.

I can tell you that neither Fantom or EA motorsports does it either.....and they are the other two top accounts....

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Old 11-16-2005, 12:45 AM   #5
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There are quite few ways to "tune' a stock motor these days is`nt it ?


some changes could be made , there past due in fact...
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:57 AM   #6
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<troll>Clearly, what we need is to make brushless 4300 the new stock.</troll>

So, basically, you want to run 19T. Except if you look around, tuners can make 19T and mod motors faster as well. So making stock the 27 turn equivalent of 19T just makes it... like 19T, but slower, but faster than current stock. So, wait, what would this achieve?

Where is all this cheating you're seeing? Large races seem to have adequate tech. I can't remember the last time I got beat by a better motor. Seems like it's the better drivers that get the best of me.

Not sure where the great equalizer in motors is going to be. People will find ways to tune anything with enough time, including brushless. Perhaps you should look into Mario Kart DS. I hear the online play is bomb, yo.
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Old 11-16-2005, 01:31 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
There are quite few ways to "tune' a stock motor these days is`nt it ?


some changes could be made , there past due in fact...

Agreed. While there may always be ways to "tune" something, re-buildable stock motors don't help the situation.

Unfortunately, if we go back to tabbed endbells and sealed cans, the hardcore will still find ways to have a better motor than you. Also, if we revert to the older tech, we'll start seeing stock motor lathes like in the late 1980s.

No thanks.

Honestly though, if you cut a comm, lube the bushings, change the brushes and align the hoods your 90% there. If perhaps you take the extra time to polish your bushings you'll be 95% there.


Perhaps a solidly defined Stock Brushless classification and adoption several years from now will help.
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Old 11-16-2005, 01:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soviet
Perhaps a solidly defined Stock Brushless classification and adoption several years from now will help.
Herpes!

I'd really like to see one of the big motor tuners do some research with brushless motors to see if there are any apparent tweaks that can be made to get more performance out of them. While I'm a big fan of brushless and its limited maintenance requirements, I'm not sold on it being a solution to the obscene amount of variation that can be found in stock motors if the tuning options are left unchecked.

I agree though. A clear set of rules intended to keep these motors as close to equal as possible, that tries to thwart tuning from the outset would be ideal. The beauty of brushless is that you can just leave it alone. If we can keep it that way, and keep the motors relatively equal, it could be of great benefit to the hobby. I realize tuners don't want to hear this, and they'll naysay it all along the way, but there is compelling evidence that our hobby needs this, especially for the new faces.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:03 AM   #9
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I dont know much about brushless so someone correct me if I am talking rubbish, but it seems to me that the timing of some brushless motors is controlled by the ESC programe. Those who sould reprogram an ESC may get an advantage there?

If that is the case, how the hell would you police that????
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:50 AM   #10
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As far as brushless goes, you can get a can with different windings (in the can) that will change the performance characteristics.

As for stock motors with bearing, that will definetly increase the price. Those bearings, although not expensive, are not cheap either. Bearings that can handle 30-60k rpm are not something to shake a stick at.

As for "polishing" bushings.... What the heck are you doing? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of! ANY use of an abrasive compound will do two things:

1: It will invariably leave abrasives embedded in the bushing material, which will shorten the life of the bushing, and of the motor shaft. You're bushing will be worn out much sooner than if you left it alone.
2: The bushings are made of a material called "Oil-Lite" which is a pourous oil empregnated material. By "Polishing" you are basically burnishing the material, in otherwords, you are smearing the material closing off the pourousness. When this happens, the bushings are not able to self lubricate... Self lubricate you ask? Well yes. As I mentioned, the "Oil-lite" material is embregnated with oil. When it is warmed, the oil natrually flows through the pours towards the heat. Essentially, when there is a small amount of friction between the motor shaft and bushing, the oil in the bushing will flow towards the heat; the shaft. Therefore the bushing self lubricates. It is also best to oil the bushings when they are warm, because as they cool, they absorb the oil at the surface. They are like sponges.

I say DON"T polish bushings. If anything, cut them with a reamer, but even that is really unneccesary, as they are allready at the correct diameter. Making them larger will cause play between the bushing and shaft, hindering performance. Also, as they heat, they expand. So by artificially increasing the diameter, the diameter of the bore is going to be even larger than when it was cold, further increasing the play of the motor during use.
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitCrew
As far as brushless goes, you can get a can with different windings (in the can) that will change the performance characteristics.

As for stock motors with bearing, that will definetly increase the price. Those bearings, although not expensive, are not cheap either. Bearings that can handle 30-60k rpm are not something to shake a stick at.

As for "polishing" bushings.... What the heck are you doing? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of! ANY use of an abrasive compound will do two things:

1: It will invariably leave abrasives embedded in the bushing material, which will shorten the life of the bushing, and of the motor shaft. You're bushing will be worn out much sooner than if you left it alone.
2: The bushings are made of a material called "Oil-Lite" which is a pourous oil empregnated material. By "Polishing" you are basically burnishing the material, in otherwords, you are smearing the material closing off the pourousness. When this happens, the bushings are not able to self lubricate... Self lubricate you ask? Well yes. As I mentioned, the "Oil-lite" material is embregnated with oil. When it is warmed, the oil natrually flows through the pours towards the heat. Essentially, when there is a small amount of friction between the motor shaft and bushing, the oil in the bushing will flow towards the heat; the shaft. Therefore the bushing self lubricates. It is also best to oil the bushings when they are warm, because as they cool, they absorb the oil at the surface. They are like sponges.

I say DON"T polish bushings. If anything, cut them with a reamer, but even that is really unneccesary, as they are allready at the correct diameter. Making them larger will cause play between the bushing and shaft, hindering performance. Also, as they heat, they expand. So by artificially increasing the diameter, the diameter of the bore is going to be even larger than when it was cold, further increasing the play of the motor during use.

I don't appreciate being patronized as if I was 5 years old and retarded.

I never said that ( I ) polished bushings, however some do and they get less bushing drag, etc. I was just throwing out stuff that people invariably do to juice their motors.

So kindly do me a favor and don't speak to me in such a condescending manner again.


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Old 11-16-2005, 03:23 AM   #12
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Why change Stock rules?

My vote is for abandoning stock 27T altogether and making 19T spec the new stock.
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Old 11-16-2005, 04:58 AM   #13
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I think the new stock should be the 21T class,only one motor to deal with and it is as good as any stock motor and faster but not to fast.
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Old 11-16-2005, 05:23 AM   #14
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How 'bout you guys think of changing the stock motor rules to make them SLOWER. So the class can get back to being the stepping stone into racing that it should be. Anyone that cries it's too slow would probably have the driving ability to run 19T or "gasp" even mod.
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Old 11-16-2005, 05:50 AM   #15
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Default Matt I agree

I think the problem with stock for first timers is it is just to fast and the level of competition in stock class has turned off a lot of people. People get discouraged when they are not having fun and breaking car every run.

I have noticed a huge drop off in the level of interest at my local onroad carpet track and at the same time mini truck continue to grow and grow.

The mini trucks are low cost, easy to drive and durable.

When stock is 1 1/2 laps to 2 laps slower than mod on a 75-35 carpet track I think it is safe to say that stock is way to fast

I think something along the tcs rules is the way to go and 540 type motor should be the "stock" class.

However it is really hard to stop people from wanting to motor up all the time and their skills may not be up to the task and then they lose interest.

Cheers

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