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Old 11-16-2005, 11:07 PM   #76
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You have a problem with the trackowners then,I know that if someone is way out there with lap times my track owner will pull that motor and tear it down,which is the way it should be.We have had guys banned from the track for repeated instances of cheating,again the way it ought to be.
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Old 11-17-2005, 12:31 AM   #77
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I see a lot of concern that the newbies will get turned away if they get blown away by people who know how to tune their motors or the motors are too fast for them to handle. Like a previous post mentioned with formula cars in SCCA. I too ran SCCA in the past. Did I jump in to a big 'ol V8 sedan for my first driver school ? Did I expect to win my first race ? Heck no. But then the '80's were not so politically correct and you grew up learning that little Timmy and Sally were not always winners or the best. Yeah, reality sucks. So why try to dumb down stock ? You want slower cars, run a sealed can 540 Mabuchi motor and make it a hand out class with your local club.

Why make people spend more money to by a brushless system and scrap there nice (and usually expensive ) esc, motor lathes, etc. Shouldn't the guy who puts more time and effort to learn how to tune or gear a motor better, and learn to drive smoother and cleaner deserve to go faster than the person who wants to do nothing but feel he "deserves" to be just as fast.
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Old 11-17-2005, 02:38 AM   #78
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Sems to me that the thread was started by someone - Charles - who's got sour grapes over being tapped by a "slower" driver in a race.

"He must be cheating"

Well, if you are so sure he was cheating, you should have told the race director.

If you didn't - well that's your fault. Or maybe you only have the guts to accuse people of cheating on the internet, instead of to their face?

Personally, I don't think the stock "cheating" you are talking about is really happening. At club level I have seen people run bearings and I've even hear "rumours" of 19 turn arms in the can. Bearings is true, the 19T rumours are probably just that.

At the end of the day, cheats never prosper, and if you think cheating it a valid way of winning races, then you must be a pretty pathetic individual.

Lets just race and enjoy it, eh?
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Old 11-17-2005, 02:59 AM   #79
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GUYS Let's let this thread drop it's of no real meaning anymore!
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:57 AM   #80
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Have the track hand out and collect the stock motors for each race day.
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Old 11-17-2005, 09:14 AM   #81
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There called stock motors for a reason.......................
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Old 11-18-2005, 10:59 PM   #82
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Default Stock Motors??

Technoligy is progressing way faster in stock than most people realise, if you've been racing in the class for more than a couple years you know it. Yes, the hobby needs a place for the newbies to learn to race, Yes, cheeting is rampent at the club level ( i've actulally heard " He must be cheeting 'cause I am and I can't beat him"), Yes, stock motor rules need to be revamped with full stacks, stand-up brushes, locked timing, big openings in the can, and BEARINGS. BUT, will it happen? My bet is no it won't.
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:43 PM   #83
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Quote:
Is anyone as fed up as I am that there are so many cheaters in stock. I think that it is time to change stock motors to allow adj. timing, bearings and hand wound arms so that the cheaters lose most of the easy cheats to use against those of us who play by the rules.
I am not at all fed up with how stock is right now, and I don't experience really any genuine cheaters. Everyone in the stock class I run tweaks their motor to the best of their ability within the rules. I don't agree with adjustable timing, I kind of agree with hand wound arms but only if they are done by a company and tagged - no self wound arms. Bearings I do agree with.

Bearings would actually help level the playing field a little. Yes, it would make the motors faster, but it would also help limit getting a "bum" motor with tight bushings. A newer racer may not even take it into consideration that the bushings are tight and it can make a motor slow and harder to tune. While I don't think it is a real common occurance I have personally had two motors NIB that were very tight and required a little polishing to free them up.

Otherwise I think the best alternative is to form real spec classes using decent stock motors. Using P2K's, or P2K2's with specific springs and brushes with no modification or altering, with bearings not brushes. Then people who are either too new to understand motor tuning, or don't want to deal with it will have a good clean solid fun class that is still fast and competetive.

When I first started racing I felt the same way you did, but now that I've raced stock for a year and gotten as good as everyone else with tuning my motor I have no issue with how much stock has changed. My driving still sucks, but I'm not getting out motored all the time. Cheating is still not right and there should be limits to what you can do with your stock motor however.

I would be really surprised if real cheating is occuring as much as you think. If it is, you need to talk to your race director and they need to look into it. But don't cry foul if people are just out tuning you.
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Old 11-19-2005, 12:42 AM   #84
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I started racing about 3 years ago, and from a some what new racer I think that stock is still fast. When I first started racing stock it was too fast for me, and I was getting beat by way faster guys, and I still am. I personly feel that the fast people will always be fast. I would love to see a slower motor for the beginger. I think the RORA rules sould include a non rebuildable motor just for this, and the current 27t rebuildable stock motors be reclassifed as 27t, just like the 19t class is now. By having really fast "stock" motors, and really fast guys running them only chases the "new racers" away. I think it is this combo that discourges the new racer. We need a true "ROOKIE" class for the beginer. Now I understand that the rebuildable stock motor has come a long way from what they used to be, and will continue to do so. We need to promote this sport in a way as to not scary away the new guys. Just some thoughts from a not so seasoned racer.........
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Old 11-19-2005, 01:08 AM   #85
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no matter how you break it down motor wise, people are always gonna find little ways on making them faster, more durable or whatever it may be. It shouldnt be up to organizations like ROAR to make slower classes so that people can run at their speed, its up to the racer to get up to the speed of the faster racers. Local clubs seeing a problem with too many newbies might take it on themselves to start a 540 class or whatever the answer for new racers is. Thats how I learned, we had a rookie class that was run by the more experienced racers and they would help us tune our cars/driving skills.
When I started racing touring cars, there was only 2 classes to run, that was GP and EP 1:10th with no motor rules. we still have 50 guys out ever other weekend, which for up here is pretty good. I guess what im trying to say is that local tracks dont have to abide by a set in stone rule book, you are allowed to race what ever you would like, but on a national scale, Its a different story. They(ROAR, IFMAR....) hold the races, so they use their rules, either find something that they offer that you can raceat one of their sanctioned events, or race locally.
In the end of the day, its up to the racer to decide that they want to get better and learn how to race with the big boys, or run home crying cause if they cant win, they dont wanna play.
Losing isnt so bad if you learn something from it and it drives you to do better.

just my 2 cents
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Old 11-19-2005, 02:39 AM   #86
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Think it`s alot of sour grapes re;;stock 27t class

if you can set your car up `YOU` will go faster then everyone else who can`t be bothered to setup there car
motor will come of colder ,produce power further into the race & coz of this he can use a bigger pinion to pull faster on the straights (keeping corner speed up)

over here in the UK i know of a race director that thinks realighning the brush hoods is `cheating`
he know`s nothing

as for polishing bushing most top tuners do this straight off
toothpaste is real good coz it washe`s off with water
lot of guy`s use there own way
hell i know a couple of top drivers that polish at the meeting with a cotton bud & dremal (how serious is that)
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Old 11-19-2005, 03:45 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
Think it`s alot of sour grapes re;;stock 27t class

if you can set your car up `YOU` will go faster then everyone else who can`t be bothered to setup there car
motor will come of colder ,produce power further into the race & coz of this he can use a bigger pinion to pull faster on the straights (keeping corner speed up)

over here in the UK i know of a race director that thinks realighning the brush hoods is `cheating`
he know`s nothing

as for polishing bushing most top tuners do this straight off
toothpaste is real good coz it washe`s off with water
lot of guy`s use there own way
hell i know a couple of top drivers that polish at the meeting with a cotton bud & dremal (how serious is that)
Most top tuners do NOT polish bushings. Its not the way to go. If bushings needed to be polished, the motor wouldn't turn good to begin with.

I say, just oil the bushings once per race day (a drop per end) and leave it alone.; Polishing will ultimately decrease performance.
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Old 11-19-2005, 06:52 AM   #88
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When I first apprenticed as a mechanic many many years ago, all the old veterans kept their started bushings in jars of oil. This way they were totally saturated in oil and they swore it was much better than just sweating a new bushing. Since the stock bushings are made out of the same material would it not make sense to do the same. Could you put them into vacuum shock bleeder with some synthetic oil and pull out the air from the bushing then let the synthetic work it's way in. As for sanding and polishing, it may impair the way the oil works it's way to the surface. Knurling and then reaming a bushing may be the way to go but I would expect very short life but less friction due to less surface area. This would also allow more oil into the bushing surface to float the arm.
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Old 11-19-2005, 06:56 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
A few rotten apples will always be around, regardless of what rules you have.....people will always look for a way to get the edge...

I can tell you, as one of the top 3 OEM accounts at Trinity, that I have NEVER twisted a comm on stock motor I sold or used at any type of organized race.....none of my employees have done it either....nothing is done to the motors that is not allowed under the rules.....

We will gladly take a lie detector test.....and pass it with flying colors.


I can tell you that neither Fantom or EA motorsports does it either.....and they are the other two top accounts....

Later EddieO


so you guys sell more than putnam?
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Old 11-19-2005, 07:02 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitCrew
Most top tuners do NOT polish bushings. Its not the way to go. If bushings needed to be polished, the motor wouldn't turn good to begin with.

I say, just oil the bushings once per race day (a drop per end) and leave it alone.; Polishing will ultimately decrease performance.

alright
polish bushings/armature shaft`s

pitcrew
if you still disagree , then we agree to disagre (but i`m right )

but if have your point of view we can discuss it , then we agree i am right

just go to the website`s & see there point of tuning guide they have for getting stocks to go fast
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