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Old 11-16-2005, 12:15 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by dgullickson
Novices already have a class its called Novice. Stock is a fun competitive class for even the fastest drivers.

This thread is about cheating in the Stock class. There is a thread about who should race in what class etc. up the hall.
Last time I looked the title of this reads "time to change stock motor rules"

someone else change it to the cheater concept...

I think Big Jim G, said it perfectly once a long time ago...."there is no such thing as a stock" people are slow in stock cause they don't know how to run stock...
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:18 PM   #47
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Are there any tools that can measure RPM? Like an infared gun of some sort? Or maybe a device that you could aligator clip onto the the 3 brushless motor leads and read the RPM's?

I do like the idea of making a brushless stock motor equivalent too. That would rock. I would only hope that they keep it about the same speed or slower than a stock 27T brushed motor. When I set my Sphere to limit the NEO to 24,000 RPM, it certainly worked, but it was faster than stock motors.
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:20 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Charles
Is anyone as fed up as I am that there are so many cheaters in stock. I think that it is time to change stock motors to allow adj. timing, bearings and hand wound arms so that the cheaters lose most of the easy cheats to use against those of us who play by the rules.

Its bad enough that some racers adj the timing on the stock motor for more power but we have some motor companies twisting the com to advance the timing that you can buy at the LHS.

I think that there are 2 big reasons that many new RC racers leave RC racing cheating and hacking. Stock class cheating can be greatly minimized by changing a few rules. Getting rid of hacking will take some track operators to get their heads out. If the track operators realized that they are losing alot of racers and customers in their shops because they allow the track bullies to tear up others racers cars for fun , they would address hacking immediately.

What do you guys think will stop the cheating and hacking?


The person who started the thread based it on changing the rules becouse of cheaters - see above. Refers to changing the rules becouse of cheating in the Stock Class.
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:25 PM   #49
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cheating is hard to detect in a club race...

in my experience batteries make a huge diff in stock... some guys run fresh cells very often and have that extra power... also the difference between motors just out of the package is astounding as ray stated... i've had one that was like a 19T for the life of the arm, and others that are turds from day 1... same tuning, same brushes, and springs and gearing... new designs withholding, the stock game could benefit a lot just by tighter tolerances in producing the current motors...
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:54 PM   #50
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Any time you run any given class structure(esp a restricted one)long enough it gets developed to the point where being competitive requires a lot of expertise and money,and stock has been the way it is for a long time.The gains,the difference between competitive and not is like 1-2%,not 5-10%.Any time you have a restricted class the fast guys will ALWAYS be suspected of cheating,that will never change not matter what the rules are.The whole notion that stock should be cheap is rediculous,restricted classes never will be for long.They only are in the beginning before they get developed.That said,the best thing to do to bring the cost of stock down a bit is get rid of the price cap on the motors.If stock motors cost the same as mods,it would be cheaper in the long run.Bearings should be allowed of course,cause bushings are just stupid.If handwound arms were allowed in stock then you would only have to buy ONE to get a good one-no more buying motors in bulk to get the "rocket".If the price cap were lifted then stock motors could have machined endbells(and other things)-less tuning required,and less maintenence too.Locked timing makes sense and should stay-it goes hand in hand with a turn limit.

The cost of the motors is nothing compared to everything else that is required to be competitive in stock.People will throw a fit about keeping the price of the motors the same,but it's the batteries that make the power in stock.Here's an example-take the best stock motor from the whole bulk tray,do every legal tweak to it,and get awsome dyno numbers.Put it in the car with a $40 battery pack.Take another motor straight out of the package and put it in the car with a $100 battery pack.Which one will be faster?And it often takes BOTH to run up front.People will yell and scream that the motors have to stay cheap,but no one ever says anything about costs like ceramic bearings,Quantum 2's,lightweight/custom chassis components,dynos,magnet zappers,ect,ect,ect.Anytime you place a price limit on any part of the car,they will just spend it somewhere else.

Placing restrictions on the batteries will never work.There is no good way to tech it,and people will abuse them even worse than they are now.It would just drive the costs higher-a lot higher.

Brushless isn't the answer for stock.It places an even higher premium on batteries.It also is not yet a UNIVERSALLY understood technology-it's too new.There's too much opportunity for abuse,and what is and isn't legal/comparable is not yet really defined,or understood universally at the local level.Brushless IS the answer for real entry level classes-and it would help if all the RTR's came with one factory installed,but the price hasn't come down enough yet.

You have to decide what you want.If the idea is to slow stock down,that's easily done(tires/weight)but it won't make it any cheaper or less competitive any more than part of one season.If the idea is to make it cheaper,or a true entry level class-IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! The genie is already out of the bottle.No one wants to slow down,or go backwards.There's an awful lot of people,probably most in stock,that run the class because they LIKE working on that last 1-2%.What's needed more is a class for those who don't like running stock,but do cause it's all there is.Make room for the new without running off who you already have.The fast guys will always be the fast guys whatever you do.Force them up a class and they will be fast there too,or get mad and leave.You can change the rules for stock,but at best it will make almost no difference.The best thing to do would be to re-name it to something else like Pro-Stock,Super-Stock,GrandAm-anything-and get over this notion that it's something it isn't and never will be again.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:31 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Howard
How 'bout you guys think of changing the stock motor rules to make them SLOWER. So the class can get back to being the stepping stone into racing that it should be. Anyone that cries it's too slow would probably have the driving ability to run 19T or "gasp" even mod.

Too true!! We should make stock full stack arms and stand up brushes again. Even better, take a couple winds off and reduce the timing so they last longer, but still have an ok amount of speed. This would really force the need for speed people into 19t, and let stock be a place to learn.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:47 PM   #52
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Of course better batteries make you faster. The new 3800 that I use are 1.19's and they are sooo cheap now and the next batch will have 1.20"s (awsome). I can tune my car. I drive pretty well.

Just an example of my tuning and driving ability. I was at a large race held in AZ last weekend. I was runninh a Kisbey stock monster (I think I paid $40.00 from Jake's P.H.)out of the package. I was faster than just about everybody and I was putting the slap down on FT TC4, Xray etc. with a well tuned XXXS! The only time I was not running 1st or second and mostly first is when I was hacked by poor drivers that ran cheater motor in the main and tore the back end off of my car. If the cheater would have been running a legal motor he would never have been close enough to me with his driving skill to hurt me until I lap him later in the race.

As I think about this more it's really the track operators that enable the cheating. It is sooo obvious when a stock motor is 36 degrees of timing. It's like a 19turn, and that is a serious advantage in stock. But the bigger issue is that cheating hurts our sport big time as the newer drivers run into the hobby shop and buy expensive batteries and motors that will never be on the pace of the leaders, so many racers quit because it is so frustrating when you have a 0 possibility of winning a race.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:54 PM   #53
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What's the big deal about forcing people to run 19T????

the same crap goes on in 19T as in 27T with regards to motor tuning, hot winds, etc...you still have a turn limit, so batteries are still a major factor...

it has the SAME assortment of issues as stock, only slightly faster...

sure...19T has bushings...where else would that improve the situation?? that isn't a cure to the problem, it's simply relocating it....
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:01 PM   #54
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Why does everyone want to re-invent the wheel ? Yeah stock motors are fast. Yeah I have a motor lathe and dyno. Yeah I moved passed Intermediate into Sportsman very quickly and may move up again soon. So ?

There's a reason to run Novice / Intermediate / Sportsman / Expert classes in stock. In any racing, people who decide they want to invest the time and money to be more competitive will be.

If the Newbies can't handle the power, set up a 540 Mabuchi / Johnson rule for your local club. If you want everbody to have the same motor, then the next complaint will be to ban ceramic bearings. Hey, it's an advantage. Then speed controls. Fixed gearing for a class, then ........

Just cause someone motors you on a straight does not mean he's cheating. Think of the other possible reasons. Better batteries, car rolls more freely, better gearing choice, better speed control, same speed control but just programmed better, or god forbid, they just had a much higher corner speed and carried that on to the straight better than you did.

Don't get caught up in the "he must be cheating because he's faster than me syndrome". Equipment, experience, and car set-up have a lot to do with it.
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:02 PM   #55
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If we go to a brushless motor, then that is going to push up the price of racing! Lets just stick to what we have!
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:05 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
Why does everyone want to re-invent the wheel ? Yeah stock motors are fast. Yeah I have a motor lathe and dyno. Yeah I moved passed Intermediate into Sportsman very quickly and may move up again soon. So ?

There's a reason to run Novice / Intermediate / Sportsman / Expert classes in stock. In any racing, people who decide they want to invest the time and money to be more competitive will be.

If the Newbies can't handle the power, set up a 540 Mabuchi / Johnson rule for your local club. If you want everbody to have the same motor, then the next complaint will be to ban ceramic bearings. Hey, it's an advantage. Then speed controls. Fixed gearing for a class, then ........

Just cause someone motors you on a straight does not mean he's cheating. Think of the other possible reasons. Better batteries, car rolls more freely, better gearing choice, better speed control, same speed control but just programmed better, or god forbid, they just had a much higher corner speed and carried that on to the straight better than you did.

Don't get caught up in the "he must be cheating because he's faster than me syndrome". Equipment, experience, and car set-up have a lot to do with it.
I think that summed it up pretty well
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:49 PM   #57
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Most clubs cant run several class i.e, novice /sportsman/ intermediate/pro. not enough people every race night.

But it still does not address the rampant cheating in stock. Please don't rehash some people just look like they are cheating because they drive better and have better batteries. I have the best batteries, motors, gearing, car(TRF415, Xray '05, Pro 4), Tires, radio M11, esc VSF1, etc...

The point is if you run a stock motor at 36 degrees you will probably win stock(if you are a decent driver as your motor will be similiar to a 19t). Nobody who follows the rules will ever be able to win legally.

So, by the track operators letting cheaters cheat( I am not talking about properly run tracks that check motors occasionally) you are turning anybody who wants to win into a cheater or they quit racing as thay can never win. Putting a major hurt on RC racing and the RC car industry.
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:58 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Most clubs cant run several class i.e, novice /sportsman/ intermediate/pro. not enough people every race night.
.
I think that's the real problem.
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Old 11-16-2005, 04:04 PM   #59
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Ok, so I still do not see how changing the rules on stock motors will eliminate cheating...you would have to make the motors so basic that no one will even want to compete in the class

Hell, I even hear runors that guys running in the Tamiya Series events modify 540 motors.

Want to get ride of cheating....you have to embarrass them...We've caught guys cheating in 19t and called them out on it...

There is nothing better than making someone look stupid once they get caught.

I like the idea of 4-cell sedan racing in stock...19t and modifieds still run 6-cell
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Old 11-16-2005, 04:55 PM   #60
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If you suspect someone is cheating. Why not speak with the track owners/managers and ask them to tech the motors of the top 3 finishers some week.

Someone should be able to provide them with some way to test RPM or power. If no one has the right equipment then you can jury rig something with another motor and a Voltmeter. I think that would at least reveal a motor which is significantly different. If you detect one that would justify a full tear down. Even if you do not nab the specific cheater you are after, I think it would have a strong deterent effect.
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