ammdrew

iTrader: (25)

08 at the plex was our first brushless national, SS was 10.5, We wrote the first set of rules at excomm that year, Ruben announced, Bob was tech, I was the ROAR official. Barry baker threw a fit when he plugged his transponder in backwards.

Novak and LRP were the speedos. Josh did backwards hot laps in his mod lower sedan main until the rotor blew up!!!

13.5 rubber was a provisional class that was the turning point to go back to rubber on touring car.

We learned a lot about how fast BL could go that race and the next few years were a huge revolution as we worked Lipo in and 17.2-13.5-mod classes came to be and timing came into the game and then went away.

Kevin K

iTrader: (32)

IMO the best plan is to have 2 sets of rules.

Rule 1
Tracks that are under 100ft long
Classes all blinky
21.5 12th scale
13.5 12th scale
17.5 WGT...rubber or foam
25.5 VTA/GT bodies actual cars being raced not blobs
21.5 USGT....this class would be the new "stock" Johnny racers will have to use something other than a blob body to race in this class
13.5 sedan
25.5 F1

Tracks that over 100ft long
17.5 12th scale...blinky
Mod 12th scale...open ESC
13.5 WGT....rubber or foam..Blinky
21.5 USGT...Blinky
13.5 Stock...Blinky
Mod Sedan...Open ESC
21.5 F1...Blinky

RedBullFiXX

iTrader: (34)

Is the goal of this thread to bring in / retain new racers, or mix & match motors / bodies to keep the same racers happy ?

The 2 are very different discussions

Mechintosh

+1000
We live in a world of instant gratification. On Road is not. Factor the learning curve in with the money involved against other forms of entertainment and I believe this is a bigger factor than whether we have to many classes to run.

ercwhtsd

iTrader: (1)

One of the more interesting reads in a long time on RC Tech I would say.

The one thing, in my opinion, that no one has touched base upon, in regards to the dwindling on-road participation theory........, besides the crazy amounts of time and energy it now takes.

LIFE............

Here is what I am getting at, look around the pits at your local track.
How many faces of old do you still see?

How many of those faces now have a family or career?

How many of those faces are at the track spending the entire weekend there?

How many of those faces, you no longer see, have moved to dirt with their new family and spend just 1 day at the track or their choice?( and thus dwindle the available resources for a viable indoor on-road facility).

School plays, soccer,tee-ball,hockey, PTA/PTO, football,baseball, softball have all played a roll at some point.

Then there is the "instant gratification" society that we have let ourselves become. No longer is there a drive to work to succeed at a "hobby" or extra curricular activity.

There are a number of factors that have affected the state of on-road in the last number of years. Geographically those things will be very different.

CristianTabush

iTrader: (13)

This is very true.

As a track owner myself I struggle with a lot of theses issues on a local scale. Getting over 10 entries many times of the year is a challenge, and even when we are doing great, we seldom get over 25.

I always try to take different points of view into account to see if there is a more "efficient" outcome (more positives than negatives) and when it comes to RC On road, I'll give you my point of view as a track owner and racer.

Mod: I consider myself one of the few in the country that can really squeeze the performance out of a mod car. While I may not be able to beat Paul or Keven, I have finished within 3-5 seconds of their time on the lead lap before. If I were being selfish I'd say " don't change mod, it's fine, work harder". Unfortunately, the reality is that if I keep thinking this way is I will keep running by myself locally most of the time. If I were to chose, I'd say 10.5 would be a good indoor motor limit for mod. 10.5 would be quick enough for both TC and 12th scale to satisfy the advanced guys and slow enough to entice the up and comers and pro stock guys to do it. 10.5 is also a motor limit, so technically, if it is too much, run a 13.5 or a 17.5 if needed in this class. A 10.5 motor limit is also about the point where motor of the week war stops. 13.5 motors still matter if you have a fast one or not much like 17.5.

Stock: I put a new 17.5 24k in my tc last night, boy is that a quick little motor. Many argue that stock or spec is not "beginner", this really is BS. The spirit of the rules was written so that stock was for entry level, to hone your skills and as soon as you got good, you'd move to mod. The cars were much slower back then though, so most people wanted to move up. On road for me has always been slightly different though in that the cars were never really very slow, even in the 27T days. I remember seeing my Dad's first HPI RS4 down the straight with a stock motor and thinking "on-road is fast". This was in '97 when TC had just started.

Recently, I believe the slower or "funster" classes were created as a result of newbs or hobbyists getting tired of being run over by pro stock racers across the land. The speeds are more adept to learning and it tends to be more equipment friendly.

I say that just to come back around and say, stock tc would be good around 25.5. It's about the speed that new on roaders and hobbyists alike can control a car when they are new. For 12th scale, I don't know, 17.5 is already pretty slow at our place. Our track is a bit bigger (100x40) so I do see where it might benefit from slower motors in smaller locations. I also don't think 12th scale is the best spot to push newbs towards, it requires more attention detail so the driving skill of the guys that get into it should be a bit higher if racers are pushed into the right classes. I would not be opposed to a 21.5 class if this would mean 12th scale would blow up (I doubt it would though).

Now, what we have done locally and has worked the best is different, but it requires more work. (And ultimately that is the biggest problem in RC, everyone throws in their 2c, you end up with a couple of buckets full of pennies and no one does jack sh!t about anything. ) We basically have 2 classes all the time: 17.5 TC and 13.5 12th scale.

In 17.5 TC, we always stack heats. We put like talent with like talent. With newbs we EMPHASIZE how they do't need to run a lot of motor timing and turn down their dual rate to 60-70%. This helps a ton. It makes their cars controllable and in case you guys have never tried it, running a 17.5 with no timing advance actually makes the motor almost as slow as a 25.5. This does involve the racer to self police themselves of not making their car faster, but it works. As a race director I nag on the guys to slow down their cars a lot though.

In 12th scale, we run 13.5. Most of the 12th scalers are more advanced usually at our place, so the extra speed helps to keep us engaged. Motors are getting so fast that the first minute or so, I actually drive my 12th scale more like a mod car, rolling throttle and being smooth. When we do have less advanced racers that want to race 17.5 (and we have enough) we add the class, or throw them into 13.5 with a 17.5. Most of the time, with low class counts and conscious racers this is not a huge issue on the track ( this happens when we have 4-6 entries ).

Last thing is tires. This can go both ways. Response time of the cars becomes slower with harder tires, so they can be more forgiving, but there is a limit. Make a tire too hard and then mod really becomes inaccessible to the avg guy that want to try it. It's just too hard to get the throttle control right. Let's try to agree to not say "hard" tires for racing, but rather "medium" is the way to go.

nwagner

iTrader: (6)

The goal is twofold. Make the speeds more accessible meanwhile getting 17.5 guys to run a class that is more in line with their ability.

We all know the guys who struggle getting a 17.5 around the track that would be more suited with a 21 or 25 and then there are the top tier guys that shouldve moved up a long time ago. 17.5 is popular for a reason, it feels closer to the mod of old.

chensleyrc1

iTrader: (38)

Actually, no they were not. I was at that race and ran brushless in stock against brushed motors. I qualified in the B with it and blew it up in the main while in 2nd. It was the first year ROAR allowed brushless and ran it combined.

RedBullFiXX

iTrader: (34)

Until the cost of entry is addressed I doubt the amount, or delivery of power would grow this hobby

I'm all for stock club racing of TC 25.5
17.5 1/12 is fine imo, let's at least try to keep the racers we have engaged.

But a $500+ cost of entry is only going to appeal to a very slim new audience

Local tracks should have fun, scale looking rentals to get the fun of a car in the hands of anyone interested

RC is at a point where it's the simplest ever to find if one is looking for it
While also competing against more and more "other" easy to find hobbies thanks to Google

KA2AEV

iTrader: (1)

Actually will all of the new packages that NASCAR introduced to the fans/teams this year
This is what they are trying to accomplish. If you follow NASCAR you'll see a lot less passing like they did in the past and its a lot more about strategy and car setups than pure horsepower!

RobS

Here is an outside the box idea... Instead of us experienced racers throwing out ideas and suggestions how about we take some people from outside of the rc racing world and see what they think. Maybe take a couple bashers, or very new racers or a few random people that wander in and out of the tracks and let them have a go with our cars. Talk to them about it.. See what the think, and what their likes/dislikes are. Ask them what they would like to see changed to be more user friendly to the average person, or what would be more interesting to watch/compete. Might be interesting to see what they say.

Chaz955i

iTrader: (5)

In RC someone can put together a car comparable to what any top pro has for under $1000. Pro level gear in golf, cycling, shooting, you name it, costs as much or more. I agree that the price doesn't help but there are many other hobbies doing just fine where the price of entry is even more expensive. There are less expensive options. In TC Tamiya, and Associated sell inexpensive tub based cars. Spec R, 3 Racing, and Yokomo have some less expensive cars using a more contemporary layout. The arguement I tend to hear is "What happens when the noob is ready to upgrade?", so the guy just starting out is generally pointed to something much more expensive. On the other hand if a class was to do a cost capped chassis there would be just as many moaning that they can't use their three year old XRay or whatever top end chassis they have laying around. Eventually someone has to realize that not everyone will be happy and make a decision they think is best for the hobby. It is complicated and not an easy thing to do, expecially with the tight margins most tracks operate.

RedBullFiXX

iTrader: (34)

Exactly !
We are competing with many hobbies that cost as much or more
Why would anyone want to play with "Toy Cars" for the same cost as the other higher valued hobbies you mentioned, all of which have a level to aspire where a career could be the end game, as much a dream as it may be, will never exist in RC racing

Chaz955i

iTrader: (5)

Interesting, I've been playing guitar, messing with motorcycles for years and added RC about five years back. I spend a large part of my discretionary income on hobbies, most far more expensive than RC. Potential career aspirations were never part of the equation. Usually it came down to how many I could fund at the same time and the ones I enjoyed most would win out. That was true when I was a kid also. That's me. You may be onto something. I've just never considered it.

skeemcire

iTrader: (5)

I'm not sure it's that simple. I see new racers all the time at the local off road tracks spending that much or more getting started.
On road racing like oval only appeals to certain people. No amount of rule changes or cheap entry level kits will change that.