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Change carpet onroad in the U.S.?

Change carpet onroad in the U.S.?

Old 10-09-2015, 07:25 AM
  #211  
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Originally Posted by patorz31 View Post
Our Club, is an onroad club, for that last few years, we have had over 100 members. We run friday nights with car counts that would rival most big races. We have have 7 classes we run- Open, Tamiya Mini, TC Stock, 13.5 12th, WGT, F1, and CTA/USGT (We run them together).

We do very well for the 3 local hobby shops promote our club, and we try and promote them. We use the open class as a novice first timer class. We a completely new person walks in, and asks about starting out we direct them to to a Tamiya Mini. One of the best starter classes there is, some are put off because there is no RTR.

The problem with Onroad isn't the number of classes it's that their is no starter class or cars. Off Road has the Slash and a bunch of cheap RTR buggies, what do we have? We need a manufacturer to build a cheap durable reasonable handling On-Road rtr, that can become a place for newbies to start.
The Vaterra V100 is an excellent SPEC type RC car that is very much like what the SLASH is to offroad. RC Excitement has a Vaterra SPEC class that draws in a lot of racers every race day. The car is durable, has minimal adjustments and runs really well. Here is a basic rules package that can be used -

Vaterra SPEC 1/10 Class

These items are mandatory to have in the car -
1. Stock Esc, servo, 15T brushed motor and motor connector.
2. 2S Lipo battery (can set limits on mAh and max C if desired to keep costs down).
3. Pick a tire option that best suites your track -
a) Option 1 - Vaterra V100 front wheels (front and rear) with HPI X Pattern D Compound tires.
b) Option 2 - any 24mm wheel with the USGT treaded tires. +2mm offset rims are allowed, or you can put spacers in zero offset rims to max at +2mm per side.
4. Stock 77 tooth spur gear.
5. Vaterra 1/10 bodies only, can be painted to customize. Must run the whole body as intended from the factory. You may remove the mirrors, but no other changes to the body.

These are the items you are allowed to change -
1. Battery Connector
2. Transmitter and Receiver
3. Diff Fluids
4. Traction Compound is allowed.
5. You may remove the plastic motor cover.
6. Vaterra oil filled shocks are allowed, part ‪# ‎VTR333001.
7. You may change springs. Only Vaterra springs are allowed, part ‪‎# VTR233010‬ & part ‪# VTR233008‬.
8. The replacement servo is Spektrum part ‪# ‎SPMSS6170‬.
9. You may shave the battery strap down by the pin to allow for the 2s Lipo to fit.
10. You may add the Front Splitter (bumper) part ‪#‎ VTR231015‬ and add foam for protection.
11. You may add a rear wing. Only the Vaterra rear wing set (VTR230014) or the HPI molded wing set (HPI85197) may be allowed.
12. You may change the pinion gear, up to a 30T is allowed, but you must run the stock spur gear.
13. You may remove the brake calipers.
14. Motor heat sink is allowed, NO FANS ALLOWED.

If it is not listed, you may not do it.

Best regards,
Brian
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:27 AM
  #212  
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Originally Posted by sg1 View Post
We (NORCAR) actually run a spec 1/12 21.5 turn class with pretrued spec tires and spec gears. We also do a handout motor, each one is dynoed and locked. It makes for great racing. It's all about working with car setup and track time We did run it at the Halloween Classic.
I like this idea. What motors do you guys use and how do you lock them in place? Are you handing out motors randomly at the start of the day and collecting them at the end to prevent tampering between club races?
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:29 AM
  #213  
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Originally Posted by sg1 View Post
Just reading through this thread...

I like the idea of going to higher turn motors, combining a few classes, and dropping others.

I like the VTA and USGT classes (realistic), but I would go to just 1 class with 25.5

1/12 mod and TC mod would be dropped/changed to 13.5

Change the 17.5 TC and 17.5 1/12 classes to 21.5

F1 25.5 would stay as is

Lastly 1 "WGT style" class, there's 3 or 4 rule sets out there, I'd pick 1 with a 17.5 and go with it.


Help running a track (NORCAR) and holding some bigger races during the year (Halloween Classic along with TOUR events) I see how all these different classes evolve and start popping up and start dilute the fields. This years Halloween Classic had 12 classes, it was ALOT! Looking back at it and looking way back in the past (1980's) there was much more competition per class with way less classes. I know at a club level this may not be a good thing to do, I could see loosing entries by dropping or combining classes. The thing to look at is will doing this help bring in new people and keep them wanting to race. I have seen an increase in F1 since going to 25.5 and it brought better racing. Whatever ends up happening we need to look at it from the point of how can we get new blood into this hobby, we're not getting any younger...lol... I seen the same group of guys I raced in the '80's this past weekend and we're not getting better...lol..
I'm already excited to get back to racing after my summer vacation. Your proposed changes are really cool. There has been a lot of good discussion both for and against these changes but in the end the only way to find out is to actually try it. I'm in.
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:39 AM
  #214  
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Originally Posted by kuruption View Post
I like this idea. What motors do you guys use and how do you lock them in place? Are you handing out motors randomly at the start of the day and collecting them at the end to prevent tampering between club races?
We picked up some Trackstar 21.5's (got a deal on a bulk supply).
We took them all apart, checked the stator, rotor, and bearings.
Put them back together and set the timing on a motolyser.
Then put them on a dyno to see where they were under a load.
Made a few small tweaks and were able to get them within 100rpm under 10 to 20a loads.
We used a tamper proof sticker over the timing endbell and screws.
Each motor is randomly given out each race day then returned.

It's time consuming to set them up, but makes for much better/closer racing.
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:39 AM
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Just another thought. I think it's a mistake to treat the rules for every class the same, it should be mixed up a bit too. For instance, why is everything rocket round? I liked UF1 rules because qualifying was different -- why not go to Reedy format for some classes, rocket round for others? Heads up starts like VTA was cool, too.

I agree on combining USGT and VTA into one 25.5 class, but not USVTA rules where motor is limited, but do spec on the tires, limit FDR, and limit mAh. And then, stock TC should be same motor (25.5), but with spec'd TC tires, no FDR and no mAh limit. This makes the progression from USGT and VTA to "stock TC" easier on the wallet. The next step to mod TC (say just a 13.5 motor) is then just a motor change, too... again, easy on the wallet. Blinky for everything, of course.

This way a new racer can buy a single chassis, slowly evolve through the power and handling regime.

Similar deal with pan car. If it's 1s, then motors need to be slightly faster. I like the idea of 1/12 21.5 as stock, with mod maybe being 10.5. I think most tracks are too small for anything with fewer turns. Spec 1/12 tires too, both stock and mod.

That's all at the club level.

Current "open mod" type rules would then become "pro" rules and that could be used primarily at larger events. Club racing should be focused on competition, fun, and expanding the hobby so stick to basics as much as possible. Use big races to show up skills.
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:41 AM
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Leave Mod motors/esc alone.

Lock the motor/esc timing for spec classes.

Harder tires for all classes. Harder tires alone will slow everyone down significantly, cut costs, and make it easier for a new racer to join the racing. Manufacturers can't go this alone without support from tracks and racers either. If they offer a harder tire for "spec" racing nobody will use it unless it's a rule at the track to use it. So, people use the stickiest tire they can in order to compete.

At our local club track you can run one of two TC tires. A hard, easier to drive, longer lasting tire or a soft, twitchy, glue the sidewalls tire that is faster around the track. The softer tire almost always wins out because nobody can give up the lap time of that tire even though it makes racing less fun, more costly and harder to get new onroad racers to stick around. Plus, if you race on harder tires locally but you go to a big race where softer tires will be used you're off the pace because you have been using that tire and understand the setup and driving required for it. Meaning that we all need to move to a harder tire, not just one track.
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Troy Carter View Post
Leave Mod motors/esc alone.

Lock the motor/esc timing for spec classes.

Harder tires for all classes. Harder tires alone will slow everyone down significantly, cut costs, and make it easier for a new racer to join the racing. Manufacturers can't go this alone without support from tracks and racers either. If they offer a harder tire for "spec" racing nobody will use it unless it's a rule at the track to use it. So, people use the stickiest tire they can in order to compete.

At our local club track you can run one of two TC tires. A hard, easier to drive, longer lasting tire or a soft, twitchy, glue the sidewalls tire that is faster around the track. The softer tire almost always wins out because nobody can give up the lap time of that tire even though it makes racing less fun, more costly and harder to get new onroad racers to stick around. Plus, if you race on harder tires locally but you go to a big race where softer tires will be used you're off the pace because you have been using that tire and understand the setup and driving required for it. Meaning that we all need to move to a harder tire, not just one track.
17.5 is still too quick to be "Stock" indoors, even with a harder tire. 21.5 with a harder tire would be fine (though I still think 25.5 is the right speed). A 25.5 w/o battery capacity limits plus open, ROAR-approved motors would be quicker than what people are used to in VTA.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:13 AM
  #218  
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Here in the UK we dropped 13.5 boosted on a 10x15metre track a few years ago because it was insanely fast.

I could drift some corners with full power during a race and although it were fun and crazy to watch, it wasn't practical and definitely not what racing was about. It also shredded tyres

The cars were too hard to drive consistently fast on a 3 minute run using racing lines, this is with foam tyres and additive.

Since going to 17.5 boosted OR 13.5 blinky in the same class and banning additive the slower guys have got quicker imo.

The fact of the matter is that the rate of development in Lipo, brushless motors and ESC's compared to the brushed motor days has been huge.

It is very satisfying to make a race clean of mistakes but it's not fun trying to do it whilst keeping up with the fastest guys and end up wrecking your car.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian McGreevy View Post
17.5 is still too quick to be "Stock" indoors, even with a harder tire. 21.5 with a harder tire would be fine (though I still think 25.5 is the right speed). A 25.5 w/o battery capacity limits plus open, ROAR-approved motors would be quicker than what people are used to in VTA.
I actually ran a 25.5 TC one day last year because my kid was thinking about coming out to a practice day (he's 8yo). I took my normal 17.5 TC and ran the Novak 25.5 motor in it and it was easily faster than VTA (lighter, slick tires, etc). I don't remember how close it would have been to USGT but it was definitely easier to get around the track. However, I was pretty much full throttle everywhere on the soft slicks I was running which made it pretty hard for a newcomer IMO. On a harder tire it probably would have been on par or slower than VTA.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:20 AM
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If I were starting off racing now (instead of 21 years ago) I think I would probably take one look at how fast on road racing is and walk away.

You need a club with very welcoming arms and a desire to keep racing no matter how many bad days you have to start with working with setup and learning racing lines, breakages, being lapped etc etc.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by nwagner View Post
A good comparison just popped as I sip my coffee:

Compare real Formula1 with NASCAR in the U.S.

F1 has little regulation on tech

NASCAR has lots of regulations on tech

Which is more popular?
F1 Worldwide > Nascar
F1 is a Euro based series, it will never compete with Nascar in the US, much as Football will never compete with Futbol

And F1 has a tremendous amount of regulation, fans of F1 who pay attention, know this

Personally, I don't think any of RC is broken
We are just competing for a dwindling piece of the spare income/time budget in this modern world of Hobby/Entertainment
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
We are just competing for a dwindling piece of the spare income/time budget in this modern world of Hobby/Entertainment


This is the crux of the issue really.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:43 AM
  #223  
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I personally feel that Wether it's VTA/USVTA/USGT. Those need to stay alone. They are prefectly fine. They are the stock 2wd buggy/ stock short courses of on road. What needs to get addressed with 1/12 scale/ WGT and TC. I personally believe that on my track the fastest gt drivers are only .3-.4 off the fastest TC pace. I feel that TC should just go to straight 13.5 blinky and that's that. That will allow for sufficient speed gap for drivers and classes. As for 1/12 scale and wgt pick a motor and battery. Then run both them together. They do it in real racing look at Le Mans they have a GT3, GT2, and GT1 class all together. In Japan, GT500 and GT300 run together. Just get better bodies. Anything is possible but at the end of the day it depends on how the local hobby shop as well as follow of drivers race every weekend. As for F1 I could care less if it gets a 21.1 or 25.5 motor.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
F1 Worldwide > Nascar
F1 is a Euro based series, it will never compete with Nascar in the US, much as Football will never compete with Futbol

And F1 has a tremendous amount of regulation, fans of F1 who pay attention, know this

Personally, I don't think any of RC is broken
We are just competing for a dwindling piece of the spare income/time budget in this modern world of Hobby/Entertainment
Valid point. I did later mention in another post that even F1 realized the insane speeds the new tech in their sport was bringing and regulated it to keep speeds manageable.
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:03 AM
  #225  
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I do think it's very important that we understand how fast even the slowest class of racing is, then ask yourself if you were the new guy walking into a race event for the first time thinking of starting up "does this look controllable enough for me?"

If the answer is no, then there will be no new blood coming to your race event and that is a very critical element. We all have to start off somewhere and the equipment choice again is another very important element.
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