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Old 10-18-2005, 07:20 AM   #61
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Back in May, I sent an official proposal to the ROAR Ex-Comm to get the issue of extending the race lengths put on the ballot this Fall.

I proposed 6 minutes for on-road sedan and off-road. I also proposed that the 2 be voted on separately. If you want to vote for a change in both, go ahead. If you want to split your vote, or just vote for one class, then that's your choice as well.

Let the racers decide what they want. This is how it was handled nearly 15 yrs ago when races were changed from 4 to 5 minutes, and it should be done the same way now.

If this never makes it to the ballot, I will have lost ALL faith in ROAR and likely will NEVER attend another ROAR event. This is an issue that the racers should decide, and not by a small group of people that THINK they know what's best for us.

They have nothing to lose by allowing the membership to vote on the change.
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Old 10-18-2005, 07:39 AM   #62
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And BTW, ALL THE BIG Races are first come.first serve.... There is a specific amount of racers any race can support. I dunno about off-road, but when was the last On-Road Electric Nats sold out ? ( I do not have the answer to this, but I bet it was not recent). I will go as far as to say, any race that is really worth attending, is sold out. How many poeple try to get into the Reedy each year... but dont...

Also, if you worry about getting the program in, adding another qualifier, will REALLY push the program.

Don't get me wrong, I am not about making a change for changes sake, but 1 minute to ,say, Spec type TC racing (Stock,19t), is not the end of the world. Start from the Grassroots, if it then becomes popular there will be enoiugh momentum to make it a regional or National standard.

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Originally Posted by T. Thomas
So your saying that the nats should turn away entries? I think that would do more harm then good. It comes down to first come first serve?

I am more for what Mal and that other guys stated, I would rather run an extra qualifier.
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Old 10-18-2005, 09:05 AM   #63
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The main problem of having longer race is battery. Most people out there still have GP3300 & Sanyo 3300.

I wish battery makers start to implement more efficient battery like Li-Po (lowest IR, high capacity, no memory, 7.4V ) and brushless system. Current motor is outdated, but some kind of rc politics make them exist until present day
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Old 10-18-2005, 09:14 AM   #64
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You want to turn entries away? At the moment a lot of tracks would rather not run a nationals because they loose money or it just isn't worth it .... now you're going to tell them to turn entries away because you want longer heats?
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Old 10-18-2005, 09:16 AM   #65
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T. Thomas, where do you race? I have never been to a race where these time constraints are such a problem (club, regional, and money races in nitro).
Nats do not represent RC racing as the majority of us participate in it, week in week out club racing does. It is a product for the paying customer.
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Old 10-18-2005, 03:13 PM   #66
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Cool Good Debate!

First off, just run 5 minute heats. Come with the longer times in the main. IE All Gas racing in the US.

"It will burn my stuff up and it will not last." BS = Gear it down and prepair for your driving to be the factor in the race. It will last. If we run to the absolute limit of the cell, like we do today, you are relying on a voltage war. If you have to go for a longer time then you rely more evenly on the cap of the battery. Last time I checked not everyone could buy 1.22V cells but everyone could buy a 3700 or 3800 sport pack. Most of these have good numbers to boot.
If you make a mistake or someone does you wrong in 5 minutes it is damn hard to catch up on the tight tracks we race on. If the main is 7 or 8 minutes it is more likely the better drivers will win.

Big races??? Who cares. Those races make their own rules anyways. I wouldn't put any stock in their standards. Especially ROAR.

The decision will come once again to extend the race times. One of the big draws of gas racing are the long mains. Driver fatigue does play a factor.

Don't compair racers to hobbiest. Those are two different catagories of drivers and should only be considered when we are trying to get a hobby driver out of the parking lot and onto the race track for some friendly competition.
In most industries the racing promotes the sport. The kid that buys the motorbike but never goes to the track makes up 98% of the market for those guys. Traxxas has reached that demographic quite well. None of those guys ask or even care if a race is 5 or 8 minutes. He only relates to how fast it can go. Then comes his first race day. He is told the rules. He aggrees and the show goes on. (most times with him shaking soo badly he can't drive straight anyways) BATTS and motors are the least of his worries.

That's RACING! Good show.
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Old 10-18-2005, 03:23 PM   #67
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David, I am from TX, and race around TX, LA, and in Florida 1 or 2 times a year(well try too anyway).

Club racing, right there is no time restraint, let the club decide what they want to run.

But when you goto a large event and are there from 9 am(most get there earlier than that) till 7 or 8 pm, it gets to be a long long day, even when running 3 or 4 classes. You are proposing to extend LARGE EVENTS, which is the NATIONAL level events. You say that does not represent the racing community, but those are the races you sayyou do not attend anyway, so WHY EXTEND THEM if YOUR NOT GOING TO GO TO THEM? I have stated before, LET THE TRACKS DECIDE WHAT THEY WANT TO DO to make their racers happy, but do not impose your wises on the FEW THAT DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY.

Races I have been too that we were there for 12 hours with just 2 rounds of qualifying on friday and saturday, LOSI RACE 1,2, & 3, Mod offroad Nats 02 & 04, Battle at the beach 2 & 3 (in florida). Other Races: PRO SERIES RACES every one I have been too, Mugen CHallenge/Pro Series 04, Gas Nats 05, NHO twice, Nitro Invites(sate level). I may not have been to a large onroad race, but sure seems the theme falls over on their side as well.

At any even where there are more than 100 entries(which is ussually not club races, regional races, nor money races(unless held in CALI)), time constraints are not evident, but these are not concidered LARGE events to me, they are larger than club races but nothing big enough to worry about anything.

National level events will rarely have less than 200 entries for the event, this makes for a long day worth of qualifying rounds. that is a minimum of 20 heats(which never works out to this, will almost always be more like 24-28 heats, but using 20 for best scenario), 5 minute races + 10 seconds to start(ifmar) + 20( to 40, using 20 for easy round number) seconds for last car to finish + 3(or 4, using 3 for example) minutes between heats = that is 8.5 minutes per heat * 20 = 170 per round(with no mistakes) + 1 hour for lunch = 7 hours for just 2 rounds. That does not cound into concideration if there is some sort of system(computer) issues which there almost always is(only been to 3 Large events where there wasn't any).

I have raced almost only off-road, but I am starting to venture over to the onroad racing and I do not plan on staying if it becomes a new battery to compete style racing. Which to me would be one thing that could be viewed by many as hurting the hobby when people stick to only one style racing.

Last edited by T. Thomas; 10-18-2005 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 10-18-2005, 04:05 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McSmooth
Back in May, I sent an official proposal to the ROAR Ex-Comm to get the issue of extending the race lengths put on the ballot this Fall.

I proposed 6 minutes for on-road sedan and off-road. I also proposed that the 2 be voted on separately. If you want to vote for a change in both, go ahead. If you want to split your vote, or just vote for one class, then that's your choice as well.

Let the racers decide what they want. This is how it was handled nearly 15 yrs ago when races were changed from 4 to 5 minutes, and it should be done the same way now.

If this never makes it to the ballot, I will have lost ALL faith in ROAR and likely will NEVER attend another ROAR event. This is an issue that the racers should decide, and not by a small group of people that THINK they know what's best for us.

They have nothing to lose by allowing the membership to vote on the change.
That by far is the best way, it lets the racers who attend these events choose what they want at them. But ofcoarse they wanted the 10 turn limit and it was removed this year, along with the hand out tire rule for offroad. New racers will not know the difference between the 5 and or 7 or 8 minute races, because if it does extend, they would have never ran the 5 minute ones, so that point is moot saying the new racers will like it more. But the percentage of racers who attend large events who are new and have only ran for less than a year is prolly less than 5%, those who attend regionals is prolly closer to 25%, maybe as high as 40%, but that is still the minority.
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Old 10-18-2005, 04:09 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
But when you goto a large event and are there from 9 am(most get there earlier than that) till 7 or 8 pm, it gets to be a long long day, even when running 3 or 4 classes.

I do not plan on staying if it becomes a new battery to compete style racing
I'd like to comment on 2 things you wrote.
First. Race fewer classes. If everyone raced just one class the race days would shorten considerably. And that would give plenty of time for longer qualifiers and mains. And you'd get more track time from your one class. And you'd have more time to turn marshal.

Second. Today IT IS "battery to compete" style sprint racing. The one who buys the highest voltage cells, or times his motors to destruction wins. Drivers skill, smooth steering and throttle control have nearly no meaning today.

I want 8-10 minute mains and see 6 minute mains as just one small step to that goal. It's OK by me if you want to buy brushless motors or LiPo cells to race in 10 minute mains. Most racers I know buy couple of new battery packs and new motor every year. 2 packs and 1 motor is about 200$ if you're not buying the most expensive stuff available.

In last thread on longer mains (This thread) there was calculation that showed how many watthours the motors are using in 5 and 6 minute races
Quote:
"Some people seem to think that longer mains make the motor run hotter. Lets do some calculations on heating motors. If you're using 3300 mAh batteries and barely make the main, the motor is using equalent of 285 Watthours in five minutes. It's using equalent of 180 Watthours in 8 minutes. The percentage of power that goes through the motor and is turned into heat is the same. Which is hotter, 300 watt heater (5 minutes) or 200 watt heater (8 minutes)? It seems obvious that the longer the main is, the cooler the motor runs. You just have to adjust the timing and gearing to last 8 minutes."
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Old 10-18-2005, 04:30 PM   #70
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Mike, sending that in really is doing more then what most members do and should be applauded. I really believe we need to see some more local racing bumping the times up, and the committee's within ROAR will be better armed to push something like this through. I am not conviced the time change should come from the top down, but rather the bottom up. We have such little voter turnout, that something like this could be passed and the majority of racers would not even know it was on the ballot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by McSmooth
Back in May, I sent an official proposal to the ROAR Ex-Comm to get the issue of extending the race lengths put on the ballot this Fall.

I proposed 6 minutes for on-road sedan and off-road. I also proposed that the 2 be voted on separately. If you want to vote for a change in both, go ahead. If you want to split your vote, or just vote for one class, then that's your choice as well.

Let the racers decide what they want. This is how it was handled nearly 15 yrs ago when races were changed from 4 to 5 minutes, and it should be done the same way now.

If this never makes it to the ballot, I will have lost ALL faith in ROAR and likely will NEVER attend another ROAR event. This is an issue that the racers should decide, and not by a small group of people that THINK they know what's best for us.

They have nothing to lose by allowing the membership to vote on the change.
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:48 PM   #71
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I don't propose anything for club racing or weekend racing. Let track owner or players decide what good rules for the race. Too many rules make some players decided not to participate the race.

Consider these realities : Some people still have GP3300 batts, and it's unfair to fight with people who have IB3800 now. So I guess mid 2006 should be more appropriate to increase race length. Give people time to make battery transition from 3300 to 3800.
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Old 10-19-2005, 04:30 PM   #72
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Why are people who run 3300's at a disadvantage? If it is runtime, then that is a pathetic excuse. Anyone with proper throttle control can make a 3300 battery last a good long time. I don't know, because I haven't really tried it, but I would guess I can get them to last in excess of 8 minutes. My packs hardly drop off my the end of the run. If your looking at voltage, the IB's clearly have the upper hand. My 3300 Fusion packs are 1.185 at 30 amps, while my SMC IB's are 1.196 at 35 amps. I remember reading something on here about a test with a very consistant driver with different voltage battery packs, and the difference was something like .1 second per lap, when 1.15's were pitted against 1.19. I may be wrong, but that's what I remember.
-Josh

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Old 10-19-2005, 06:17 PM   #73
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Default My batteries...

...are very run-of-the-mill and getting tired GP3300's that hadn't been used since March. I gently cycled them once on my Millenium Pros and Smart Trays for this past weekends "test-n-tune" session for our club. At the site it was decided to try 7-minute heats in the stock-motored TC classes (rubber and foam). Even with these relatively lame batteries 7 minutes was not a problem. Best part was...substantially more track time for my day invested. That's a REAL winner as far as I'm concerned.

btw--I also didn't break anything between minute 5 and 7...time ain't what breaks parts, crashing into barriers is. This "but you'll break more parts" argument is a non-starter.

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Old 10-20-2005, 06:11 PM   #74
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I am just curious, how many people here who want longer race lengths already run brushless and which ones still run brushed motors?
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Old 10-20-2005, 06:30 PM   #75
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I run brushed.
In NZ mod is limited to 12t and 3700 cells, so I would love to see longer races.
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