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Old 10-17-2005, 04:15 PM   #31
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Another note to longer mains, people say we can run them now, just look at Japan. Yes look at some of thier 8 minute races. If I am not mistaken, a couple years ago, teams brought an ARMATURE BALANCER to the track and 90% of the racers used them because their motors got so HOT that it softened the epoxy insulation around the wires and allowed the wire to move causing the armature to become unbalanced. Now WHO HAS THE MONEY TO BRING THIS PIT ITEM TO THE TRACK? Yet people think it will not get expensive to extend the races. Here is a test, take a mod, 8 or 9 turn, go to your local track and run it for 1 minute and check the temp, without letting it cool, run it for another minute and check the temp, and so forth till you have run for 8 straight minutes. I bet the temp climbs and never stops at one level and holds it till the end like a nitro engine does.


"Longer race length is one of the things that makes Nitro interesting."

If people want longer races, do like this comment states, run NITRO.
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Old 10-17-2005, 04:25 PM   #32
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After you cook your 8 turn motor running 8 minutes, do the same test with a 12 turn motor. The reason the Japanese brought balancers is because they were too obsessed with being competitive to run a milder motor. Also, if you run a motor so hot that it's melting the epoxy it probably has already lost more power than the guy that ran the right motor for the race length in the first place.

You can't run nitro at most indoor tracks.

Back in the day 12th scale racers used to run 1200mah cells for like... oh yeah, 8 minutes.
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Old 10-17-2005, 04:25 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
That actually has nothing to do with this discussion. This event is scheduled around the length of the racing. If they had 6 minute TC racing then the entries would have to be lowered, and everything adjsuted. And If I were Mike B, why would I lower my income.

IF people want to run longer racing, it starts from the ground up. If there are enough local clubs running 6 or 7 minute racing for TC's then ROAR would take notice. The best way to do it.. .is to do it.
How many entries wer at the Onroad Nats, or cleveland, or reedy. And they are going from dawn till dusk already?

At club racing, I am all for the tracks doing what their racers want, it keeps them coming back. But saying ROAR needs to look into it only because a handfull of people want this, does not make it right.

Here is an example. If you have 300 entries in 8 classes, you will have approximatel 35 heats, add just 1 minute to the races adds atleast 1 hour and 10 minutes to the event each day, 2 minutes you add 2 hours and 20 minutes, 3 minutes adds 3 hours and 30 minutes. For events that are already having racers at the track for 12 hours, adding more too it will only drive racers away in my mind. Keep in mind that this is only my opinion about longer races at large events. At Clubs I firmly believe the track shoudl do what the racers want.
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Old 10-17-2005, 04:29 PM   #34
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That's a good point about the length of the race day. I can certainly sympathize with that as I have passed up the chance to race at some larger events because they required an overnight stay.
Longer races would still be fun though.
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Old 10-17-2005, 04:34 PM   #35
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There was a thread on this just a couple of weeks ago. Basically the same comments....

Just an observation..... I was at an off road race last weekend. We were talking about doing 6 minutes races. It got veto'd cause one guy commented that he couldn't make 6 minutes with his 10 turn motor.....Well, I never used more than 1900 mah to recharge a pack used in one off the 5 minute races (I TQ'd the class using a 19t Chameleon). So only about 1500 mah were probably used in the car.....So why couldn't that guy make run time?

Several factors, one of which may be we are spoiled rotten by the awesome batteries available today. People can't drive or set up their car to be efficient. "I'm slow, so I must not have enough motor." So in goes the big bullet that will kill any battery in 5 minutes.

I think Joel Johnson used the phrase "drunk on mah" in his column in one of the magazines. Could be wrong on that reference, sorry if so.

Now the point......Maybe longer races would force people to be a bit more careful in their driving and motor selection. I'm 100% all for longer races. I go to the track to race, and usually race multiple classes. Raced three a couple of weeks ago....I want as much track time as possible. Lets race longer.

If you like sprint races, go drag racing. Doesn't get any more sprint that that. (I drag raced for ~15 years)

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Old 10-17-2005, 04:52 PM   #36
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Your totally missing my point. If the race length is increased then the total entries need to decrease. Promoters will make it work, one way or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
How many entries wer at the Onroad Nats, or cleveland, or reedy. And they are going from dawn till dusk already?

At club racing, I am all for the tracks doing what their racers want, it keeps them coming back. But saying ROAR needs to look into it only because a handfull of people want this, does not make it right.

Here is an example. If you have 300 entries in 8 classes, you will have approximatel 35 heats, add just 1 minute to the races adds atleast 1 hour and 10 minutes to the event each day, 2 minutes you add 2 hours and 20 minutes, 3 minutes adds 3 hours and 30 minutes. For events that are already having racers at the track for 12 hours, adding more too it will only drive racers away in my mind. Keep in mind that this is only my opinion about longer races at large events. At Clubs I firmly believe the track shoudl do what the racers want.
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Old 10-17-2005, 05:00 PM   #37
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If you have too many entrants you could run a sudden death elimination round to weed out the slower cars, just like any large sporting competition.
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Old 10-17-2005, 05:07 PM   #38
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God damn this is a good discussion!!!!!!

Im not sure if some people have taken my comments out of context. I dont think that extending mod racing is an option, unlesss we look at motor limits. and then again, maybe look at Brushless as a class which has a longer run time.(ooooh there i said it! BRUSHLESS, lets see what this envokes!)

Stock and 19 can do it now, let the clubs try it.

To All approved, time/maintanece Vs track time, I agree but wot you gonna do!
All cars need maintanence!

Davidka, yes of course a 8single is gonna go burn itself to hell if you run it for 8 min, but why not just run a 12turn, and be around for the next race instead of paking up and going home cos your car just spat a wind on your new 8t? Take some timimg out, and drop your charge rate, add a tooth and see if that helps.
After all, how many people have on their avatar,
To finish first, first you have to finish

Who ever it was that made the comment about out side advertising, well, good point! I never thought of that! kudos to you!

More stress on batteries if we run 8 min? well maybe we can charge them at a lower amp to get MORE RUN TIME! I am determined to try that this weekend. Got a practice day coming up soon, so im gonna try making 6 min with my stok and my 19t.

And admit it, no matter what we choose, isnt it always gonna rely on batteries and the latest Mah? I thought that was part of this sport!
although i confess my wallett is is still smouldering from my last battery purchase.

Maybe Lipo and brushless will evolve into an enduro class..........


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Old 10-17-2005, 05:23 PM   #39
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[QUOTE=Davidka, yes of course a 8single is gonna go burn itself to hell if you run it for 8 min, but why not just run a 12turn, and be around for the next race instead of paking up and going home cos your car just spat a wind on your new 8t? Take some timimg out, and drop your charge rate, add a tooth and see if that helps.

You just repeated the point I was making.

I understand the problem with the race day being longer but most of the tracks in this country don't have a problem with too many entrants. That's only a problem at large events where they have comitted to a long weekend of racing anyway.

Run the right stuff and longer races are not a problem from the equipment end of things. Heck, I saw a kid run a 10 turn with a 3700 pack in the 1/10th nitro class and make 10 minutes without any problems on a HUGE outdoor track this year. Who knows, maybe running longer races might force us to preserve our equipment better. I won't need to because I run brushless. Why are people still running brushes anymore?

Longer races eat up stock motors faster than mod motors. Stock motors are usually tuned to within an inch of thier lives.
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Old 10-17-2005, 05:51 PM   #40
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I see the future...


Brushless electric cars racing for 10 minutes per heat. High capacity LiPo's powering everyone. Near zero maintenance on the motor / battery systems.

No more Lathes, Brushes, Equalizers, dischargers, Diode trays, Spintech devices, Brush cutters, etc.

The old-timers who cling to old technology will retard this hobby from it's fullest potential for years to come...


BTW...if you're complaining about the length of the raceday...run more cars per qualifying heat!

No reason not to run 10+ cars per heat. Maybe more folks would learn to drive better quicker.
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Old 10-17-2005, 05:52 PM   #41
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Up here in the Seattle, we have been racing extended races for some time. At our regions largest outdoor track, we were running 7 min stock and 19t, but reduced the time to six minutes. Also, we ran 8-10 minute heats and mains at the offroad track, for all classes. In all cases, the only time I or anybody else experienced any dumping was on hot days with lots of traction running 19t with 3300's.

Extended race times can be a reality.
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Old 10-17-2005, 06:06 PM   #42
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I would much rather run an extra qualifier than run 1-2 minutes extra....
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Old 10-17-2005, 06:37 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
Your totally missing my point. If the race length is increased then the total entries need to decrease. Promoters will make it work, one way or another.
So your saying that the nats should turn away entries? I think that would do more harm then good. It comes down to first come first serve?

I am more for what Mal and that other guys stated, I would rather run an extra qualifier.

To those who run brushless, When brushless gets thier own nats and MORE people start showing up with them at larger events, then I do agree the races should be longer, but with brushed, the race length is just right.

To the one who said why not run less motor so it does not melt and be just as fast at the end at the beginning, if that was the case and that motor would have been overall faster, don't ya think the manufacturers who were at the Japan NATIONAL would have done that?
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Old 10-17-2005, 06:50 PM   #44
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One or two extra minutes per heat does not preclude the running of an extra qualifier. It has been my experience that the extra minute or two of race length does not have much impact on the race day.

Say you have 10 heats per round, and you add two minutes to each heat... thats only twenty mintues per round. Three rounds and mains, so your looking at just over an hour of extra time in the day. That time is usually wasted by guys who can't get their cars ready in the 5 minutes they have anyway. So, with longer heats, the day may sometimes be the same lenght just cause people can get their stuff ready....

The cars, motors, and batts can surely make the run time. Even 3300's.
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Old 10-17-2005, 06:53 PM   #45
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Yeah, I am still boggled by people who barely make runtime with 3300's. I think it's just hard for some drivers to learn throttle control... But every motor is more than capable of making 7-8 minutes on 3300's.
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