"Stock" TC

Old 03-24-2015, 09:22 AM
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Default "Stock" TC

So, a few of us were driving down to Houston for our first race of the Texas EOS and we got to talking about the speed of 17.5 tc and how crazy fast it has become over the last year. Here in Texas, especially at the outdoor tracks, we have seen a huge shift to USGT. The slower motor combined with the use of treaded tires is making it much more attractive to the new/average hobbyist.

So my questions are, at what point do we drop it to 21.5 or 25.5? Do we make the "stock" class track dependent? 21.5 on a big asphalt track may seem fine but a 25.5 could seem slow. Would this slowing of the TC class move career 17.5 guys to mod? What if anything can Roar's race structure do to increase TC participation? Is it Roar's place to step in and say this class is our entry level TC class and its too fast now?
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Old 03-24-2015, 10:03 AM
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I don't think touring car is a beginner class at all. USGT or VTA is what I would recommend an onroad beginner to start with.
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Old 03-24-2015, 10:13 AM
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I mat be wrong...but I read (on RCTech) that Roar might be considering a slower/entry level TC class. Racing in the MidWest, it seems that a lot of smaller indoor carpet track have a very small turnout for 17.5 TC, because of the speed. VTA and USGT are the feature classes.
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Old 03-24-2015, 10:17 AM
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My club started a 21.5 Sportsman class last rear in an effort to address the blinding fast 'stock' 17.5 sedans and the class is quite popular. The rules were simple, any 4wd chassis, 21.5 motor, 2S lipo and a sports car body. No Mazda 6 or similar type bodies allowed. Anyone running CVTA (whuch uses the same motor) could double up and run this class as well.

It seems to be working, but the 21.5 motors are almost as fast as some 17.5 now and the lap times are almost the same even when running a sport body. Not sure what's next for my club, but this class is working well and the cars look so much better with the sport bodies.
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Old 03-24-2015, 10:56 AM
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If you start expanding the classes you'll end up with just a few cars in each class and I don't think that's good for anyone. As far as 1/10 electric sedans I think it should be...

21.5/25.5 - USGT for beginners and people with older equipment.

17.5 tc - for middle of the road drivers.

Mod for top end drivers.

Get rid of the 13.5 class too

The only class I would like to see expanded/added is onroad sct. This class serves as a bridge between on road and offroad/bashers.
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Old 03-24-2015, 10:56 AM
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There is no stock. There never has been. There never will be.

The reason 17.5 TC is so fast is because 90% of TC racers run this class. So when there are this many people in the class, everyone looks for every little speed trick they can find. Those speed tricks all add up and you're left with a very fast and very competitive class.

This is why USGT and VTA sprung up. There are 2 basic rules, slower motors and bad handling bodies. If you're just getting started, you're better off starting here. Oh, and don't think because it's slower that it isn't competitive. Many older racers have given up chasing their tails in 17.5 and run the slower classes because they can use their older equipment and still keep up. Lowers the cost of RC dramatically! And keeps people in the hobby that would have retired long ago.

Two things to remember, be patient and have fun! Eventually you'll get it.
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Old 03-24-2015, 11:00 AM
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Here in Belgium we are running at our nationals a 10.5T with a blinky esc and zero motortiming, only 1 brand of esc and motor is allowed.
For indoors we have a minimum FDR of 5.8 and outdoors 5.4, this will be checked out with a FDR machine that measures the FDR.
You don't need to go to lower numbers cause it can be very fast and competitive to use zero motortiming and a minimum FDR.
This gives very close racing and it's very fast without having guys keep blowing up their motors and you don't have to spend a lot of money on different brand of motors to find the fastest/best motor.
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Old 03-24-2015, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
There is no stock. There never has been. There never will be.

The reason 17.5 TC is so fast is because 90% of TC racers run this class. So when there are this many people in the class, everyone looks for every little speed trick they can find. Those speed tricks all add up and you're left with a very fast and very competitive class.

This is why USGT and VTA sprung up. There are 2 basic rules, slower motors and bad handling bodies. If you're just getting started, you're better off starting here. Oh, and don't think because it's slower that it isn't competitive. Many older racers have given up chasing their tails in 17.5 and run the slower classes because they can use their older equipment and still keep up. Lowers the cost of RC dramatically! And keeps people in the hobby that would have retired long ago.

Two things to remember, be patient and have fun! Eventually you'll get it.
Thats why I put it in "". Its not stock, but it is what replaced the 27 turn motors from back in the day which everyone called stock. A competitive class is something that people can drive, and right now, most people cannot drive a 17.5 to 95% of its potential because its so fast.
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Old 03-24-2015, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by addicted2blue View Post
Here in Belgium we are running at our nationals a 10.5T with a blinky esc and zero motortiming, only 1 brand of esc and motor is allowed.
For indoors we have a minimum FDR of 5.8 and outdoors 5.4, this will be checked out with a FDR machine that measures the FDR.
You don't need to go to lower numbers cause it can be very fast and competitive to use zero motortiming and a minimum FDR.
This gives very close racing and it's very fast without having guys keep blowing up their motors and you don't have to spend a lot of money on different brand of motors to find the fastest/best motor.
The one motor thing prob wont happen here in the states. There would be too much bitching from manufacturers and "sponsored" drivers that cant use their "sponsors" motors.
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Old 03-24-2015, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Adams View Post
Thats why I put it in "". Its not stock, but it is what replaced the 27 turn motors from back in the day which everyone called stock. A competitive class is something that people can drive, and right now, most people cannot drive a 17.5 to 95% of its potential because its so fast.
All our classes are competitive at TQ, it's a matter of what people are going to blame their loss on this week. Would I prefer their be more of a difference between sportsman and expert, or make room for mod . . . sure. That said tracks in the states are typically pretty small so a 10.5 = mod for the most part. I would not want to throw another class in there, and to be honest if you push 17.5 to 21.5 all we will get is people complaining about buying a new motor. The 21.5's will then be 'optimized' so the speed is pretty close to what it is now . . . bottom line, the fast people will be fast regardless. TC has a steep learning curve as is, changing motor is not going to make that any easier. VTA is certainly a valid option and as close to stock as there is right now.
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Old 03-24-2015, 11:56 AM
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17.5 tc is too fast.

i think we either need bigger motors + fdr limits (so the torque will eliminate differences between motors) or a high wind sensorless motor (lets make stock cheap).

the motor / esc combo included within the ASC Apex RTR is a good example of how a ~13.5t sensorless combo can be applied to a class when we apply a high fdr (small pinion) that is still fast, and doesn't require a fan to prevent everything from melting down.
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Old 03-24-2015, 12:15 PM
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Take a look at this web page, Monster Locked™ ROAR Spec Cost Controlled Racing!

The once highly successful 27T brushed Stock Class is the motivation behind this locked motor concept.

Originally Posted by TrinityRC.net View Post
Ever wonder what happened to those hundreds of stock racers that used to show up at the big races. They were simply driven away by high technology and costs. Use the “Monster Locked” to bring the sanity back to your racing program.
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Old 03-24-2015, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by wwddww34 View Post
Take a look at this web page, Monster Locked™ ROAR Spec Cost Controlled Racing!

The once highly successful 27T brushed Stock Class is the motivation behind this locked motor concept.
I like this idea, but again, its still just one company.
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Old 03-24-2015, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mupchu View Post
All our classes are competitive at TQ, it's a matter of what people are going to blame their loss on this week. Would I prefer their be more of a difference between sportsman and expert, or make room for mod . . . sure. That said tracks in the states are typically pretty small so a 10.5 = mod for the most part. I would not want to throw another class in there, and to be honest if you push 17.5 to 21.5 all we will get is people complaining about buying a new motor. The 21.5's will then be 'optimized' so the speed is pretty close to what it is now . . . bottom line, the fast people will be fast regardless. TC has a steep learning curve as is, changing motor is not going to make that any easier. VTA is certainly a valid option and as close to stock as there is right now.
What would you consider competitive? 5 racers with a chance to win, or 15? Until you have racers that could feasibly win any event qualifying in B-mains because they were a "few tenths off that night", you don't have a competitive environment, IMO...

We need the price associated with being competitive to come down, and make becoming competitive a more attainable goal if we're going to prevent on-road RC racing from "eating itself". If that means slower cars using older technology, so be it. If it means we all run outdated $40 brushless motors, so be it. Considering I can visit a minimum of 3 websites and buy a spec motor for >$130 (which, BTW, won't guarantee me ANYTHING but a lighter wallet), it's time we stop pandering to the manufacturers and start making rules geared toward the interests of those that want to participate, and keeping those already participating interested. I'm suggesting a set of rules made to keep stock classes from perpetuating the technology driven, bottomless money pit mentality we've foolishly embraced for far too long. People complaining they'd have to buy another motor is complete nonsense if we were to slow down the stock classes; it's these same people that more than likely would be the first in line for the latest greatest motor once it's released.

Stock as we've defined it won't die until it's too slow for the racers that grew it to this size in the first place. Make the intermediate class either a 13.5 or 10.5 based class, and adjust speeds using fixed gear ratios if necessary. Top level of competition should be mod, and should be an attainable goal for practically all drivers that want to participate if their skill level allows it.
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Old 03-24-2015, 12:34 PM
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So what if its one company. There are "sponsored" drivers at USVTA event. But that's brings up another point. Why are there so many "sponsored" drivers now? I believe it was an op-ed written in REDRC that spoke about this. All it eventually does is drive up prices for non sponsored, locks sponsored into having to buy from single source creating guaranteed customers, and prevents things like the old hand out clas from being viable. It seems that these companies give out sponsorships like candy in the states, but are actually very selective in the rest of the world.

IMO "stock" whatever motor size it is should be sponsor free, superstock would be the the slightly faster class that the "sponsored" guys run in. Because that's one of your biggest barriers to entry. Its not the speed, but the fact that a new guy is running the same class as a full up factory sponsored guy. There is no middle ground.
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