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Rev Limiters - The Next Step for Spec Racing?

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Rev Limiters - The Next Step for Spec Racing?

Old 01-06-2015, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
A few years ago I did see a small piece of electronics devellopped by a German company you do need to mount between the battery and ESC. It did measure the used capacity and could be programmed by the race controll to a certain value. At the end of the race a LED did show if you have used the capacity within the limits or not. Some test did show good results.
This could be something to make racing equal with a free choice of motors and ESC's. A limited capacity makes a driver more carefull.
This is what they use is RC electric plane racing. Its sort of like a "fuel tank" you can only use so much energy if you go over the set limit then you run does not count. They only race for 10 laps but 10 laps at 160+mph their load is almost constant. With Cars I dont know how well this will work because a crash causes a big spike is amp draw so if you crash alot you might fill up your limit sooner?

IMO how racing is now I dont think there is a need for anything like a limiter or anything of that nature. If your saying the use of a limiter will get new people racing then I think thats a blind road to walk down. If people want to get into this hobby they will. Some extra gizmo isnt going to make 100's of new people show up and race.
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Old 01-06-2015, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Carnage9270 View Post
Sealed motors won't help much. Take 10 motors off the production line and test each one, they'll all be completely different with one ultimately being the fastest.

But if you limit the revs you would have to limit the amps too. TORQUE WARS! lol

Couldn't all of this be done in the speedo anyways? Seems like that is where blinky should be in the first place
Yes...

Originally Posted by B.C.Ninja View Post
Waste of time for spec racing unless you are going full throttle all the time around the track, yes it limits the top RPM, but it doesn't limit how fast you reach that RPM, therefore you'd still have a motor war, as you do already, you'd just be looking for a high torque motor rather than high RPM.
...yes...

Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
More rules does not mean more parity. Fast guys will be fast almost no matter what.
...definitely yes...

Originally Posted by WildManDriving View Post
My half though idea would be to have the 'Blinky' software limit both RPM and Amp draw maximums leaving tuning to finding the sweet spot with gearing and end bell timing.

m.Ellis
...and then tyre diameter will go up to increase top speed and then there will be a battery war to keep volts up during the run and then...

When will people learn that there is no way that racing can be made fair and equal, that's why it is called a competition! I find the current brushless/LiPo technology to create much closer racing than the old BR/NiMh technology.

In our Stock classes in the UK there is very little between the top guys in terms of power and speed, and the midfield is so equal. WE can achieve that buying all our gear straight from the model shops, and not by knowing the guy at the factory who can get us the best motors and batteries.

Stock is in a better place now, for me, than it has been for the 35 years I have been racing. Leave it alone, it works OK as a means of finding the best drivers.

Just my 2c...
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Old 01-06-2015, 01:05 PM
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I'll never understand the mindset that buying a $1000 TC and having free reign to tune a wide range of chassis and body parameters is A-OK, but eking out the slightest edge in motor setup is "unfair".
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Old 01-06-2015, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post
I'll never understand the mindset that buying a $1000 TC and having free reign to tune a wide range of chassis and body parameters is A-OK, but eking out the slightest edge in motor setup is "unfair".
well put
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Old 01-06-2015, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
Agreed! Limiting Amps for spec racing is the right way to control torque and acceleration. It's not the top speed that kills racing, it's the blistering speed the first 10 feet. .
This is the issue with racing in general. We are at the equivalent of 7 cell batteries with 8.4v lipos. There is a lot of squirt even with the slow classes.
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Old 01-06-2015, 02:58 PM
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The cars are not too fast or punchy. The motors are not too powerful and the batteries are just fine. We don't need a new poison pill doohickey or rule to try to achieve parity at the club level because that is not how you get it.

While I have not raced RC as long as some true greybeards , I have raced it for a while and I have seen a lot of ideas on how to get better parity between racers. Most of it was B.S, and nearly all failed because they were trying to slow people/cars/lap times down. When you do that you hurt the slower guys a lot more than the fast guys so the parity gets even worse. We already have spec motor and battery rules so there is already a pretty effective absolute speed and power limit... so... lets start thinking the other direction. I have seen a few effective ways of speeding up the slow a lot more than you speed up the fast:

1: Track Design. Make your track relatively flowing, with a distinct line, easy to see, and easy to judge all corners from the drivers stand. No aim-and-pray chicanes, no tight technical section that you have to hit perfectly or lose big time on the track. Yes this sort of layout will also make fast racers turn quick laps, but it will speed up the slower racers a lot more than the fast guys.

2: Spec tires and spec tire sauce. I know spec tire cant really be done in 1/12 scale but for TC and WGT spec tire rules help parity massively. Rubber tire wars are not fun in Touring, and requiring a relatively hard spec tire will save new racers money and allow racers to focus on actual car tuning instead of tires.

3: Help your fellow racers get their car sorted. Enough said. It is amazing how much faster slow guys can be when driving a car that won't bite them. Lend expertise, tools, parts, spare tires, whatever you can spare.

After that, watch out, because the slow guys may not stay slow for long.
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Old 01-06-2015, 03:10 PM
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I wouldn't mind seeing stock move from 17.5 to 21.5. I think that would create enough of a gap between super stock to get more people running 13.5. 13.5 and 17.5 are too close in lap times to get more poeple into the class.
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Old 01-06-2015, 04:39 PM
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I finding Blinky becoming a real joke now,ive now seen more motors go up in smoke,more batteries puffing,and guys buying motor after motor to run in blinky,why not just bring back boosted,unless you are a top 1% of drivers that can hit the same corner every time then you are wasting time trying to get that edge,people need to relise this,mod is starting to look cheap to race now.
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Old 01-06-2015, 04:49 PM
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While I have seen motors give up the ghost in blinky, I have never seen a battery puff from a 17.5. That only happens if your trying to illegaly charge your batt over 8.4v.

I agree with going to 21.5 for TC here in the states. I know the Austrailians do it. If we (as Americans) want to run more mod, then we have to slow down stock. Why run low turn motor that nets you no faster lap times. (Exceptions made for large outdoor paved tracks). I think it would also help in getting new people interested in something other than USVTA/GT.
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Old 01-06-2015, 05:25 PM
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Desert Rat well said although I do think there is merit in limiting rotor size to less than 12.5mm. A smaller rotor provides more margin for error in gearing & timing whilst taking away some punch.

From what I have seen of race classes around the world

Australian runs,
MOD
13.5T blinky (Stock)
21.5 blinky (Sportsman which is essentially novice)

UK, Europe & Asia run
MOD
13.5T boosted (Super Stock)
17.5T/13.5T blinky (Stock) Asia seems to all be 17.5T blinky for stock whilst quite a few places in Europe run 13.5T blinky as Stock

If you want more drivers to work there way up to MOD you need to close the gap to MOD.
10.5T blinky or 13.5T boosted provides a more manageable jump between MOD and the super stock class and fits very well in between MOD and 17.5T blinky.
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Old 01-07-2015, 08:53 AM
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Great post DesertRat!

No rev limiters.

I think spec racing is currently really good. I could see smaller rotor sizes making the cars more manageable and more realistic to drive... but its not necessary.

I'm highly competitive in USGT with my HW Justock and 21.5 Trackstar. I think that says good things about the state of spec racing in RC.
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Old 01-07-2015, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
The cars are not too fast or punchy. The motors are not too powerful and the batteries are just fine. We don't need a new poison pill doohickey or rule to try to achieve parity at the club level because that is not how you get it.

While I have not raced RC as long as some true greybeards , I have raced it for a while and I have seen a lot of ideas on how to get better parity between racers. Most of it was B.S, and nearly all failed because they were trying to slow people/cars/lap times down. When you do that you hurt the slower guys a lot more than the fast guys so the parity gets even worse. We already have spec motor and battery rules so there is already a pretty effective absolute speed and power limit... so... lets start thinking the other direction. I have seen a few effective ways of speeding up the slow a lot more than you speed up the fast:

1: Track Design. Make your track relatively flowing, with a distinct line, easy to see, and easy to judge all corners from the drivers stand. No aim-and-pray chicanes, no tight technical section that you have to hit perfectly or lose big time on the track. Yes this sort of layout will also make fast racers turn quick laps, but it will speed up the slower racers a lot more than the fast guys.

2: Spec tires and spec tire sauce. I know spec tire cant really be done in 1/12 scale but for TC and WGT spec tire rules help parity massively. Rubber tire wars are not fun in Touring, and requiring a relatively hard spec tire will save new racers money and allow racers to focus on actual car tuning instead of tires.

3: Help your fellow racers get their car sorted. Enough said. It is amazing how much faster slow guys can be when driving a car that won't bite them. Lend expertise, tools, parts, spare tires, whatever you can spare.

After that, watch out, because the slow guys may not stay slow for long.
That, sir, is the voice of wisdom. I totally agree with everything you wrote.

Martin Paradis
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Old 01-07-2015, 09:45 AM
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The best way is not just Amps but Watt limited racing this has the advantage of taking the battery out of the equation. Amp limited means that a battery with a slightly higher voltage provides a benefit. If the ESC can measure both the Amps and the Volts and limits you to a certain wattage you can:
1. Run Mod style open motor but at reasonable tailorable speeds, no need for turn, rotor size, etc. checks
2. You aren't burning up electrical components or motors trying to push them beyond design limits
3. Overcharging batteries delivers no benefit, huge safety benefit
4. Easy to tech, if the Watt restrictor is in the ESC is set you don't care about battery or motor other than some simple checks
5. Easier to design ESCs to a specific Watt standard than get manufacturing consistency out of motors
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Old 01-07-2015, 10:01 AM
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Practice helps too but then again everyone wants a trophy these days no matter how may classes or rules they create.
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Old 01-07-2015, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Robbob View Post
Practice helps too but then again everyone wants a trophy these days no matter how may classes or rules they create.
Pretty much. Slow it down and the guys who lose now and will still be losing and will be on the boards whining about tires or someone running a chassis they cannot themselves afford. The excuses never end.
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