Do you feel that? The winds of change thread!
12-02-2014, 06:16 AM
#76
Onroad will never make a huge comeback until tc kits come down in price. 400 bucks for an onroad chassis vs 250 for an off-road chassis. Combine that with no decent rtrs and you've just lost every new driver or kid on a budget in the hobby shop. Sure their are diehards to keep onroad alive and new people will come into some of the spec classes but until the big manufacturers make a competitive kit and or rtr that people can get up an running for under 500 bucks onroad will not come back large scale
12-02-2014, 06:25 AM
#77
I still think and I get blasted everytime I mention it you need the fast guys to stay out of the lower classes and not have the intimidation factor for the entry level folks. Off road does a very good job of that. You just don't have the pros running in mod and then "for fun or for more race time" drop in a 17.5 and go kill everyone.
The fire back is always "well don't worry they will put you in the F Main. Why wouldn't you want to race with the best. This isn't kids soccer where everyone gets a trophy"
Here is the problem and I am speaking from experience as I am just getting into on road. All the tough guys that have been running on road forever can say whatever they want. Reality is when a kid or just a newbie for that matter shows up to a track and the fast guys are running in every class just so they can get run time, it intimidates the crap out of the newbie's. They don't want to get in the way or cause an accident so they just don't race. It happened to me the first time I tried to get into on road at a different track. The fast guys ran every class and were quick to be pissed if a newbie bumped them. So I tried off road for a while.
Having said that I think it is also up to the track owner and the guys their racing. At our local track it is awesome. The fast guys run in the mod or expert class and they leave the lower classes for the newbie's. The solution is working as we continue to grow every race and now they are going to need to blow out a wall for more pit spaces ;-)
Doesn't matter what the "entry" class is. You can always find an inexpensive used car on RCTech.
Just my $.02.
The fire back is always "well don't worry they will put you in the F Main. Why wouldn't you want to race with the best. This isn't kids soccer where everyone gets a trophy"
Here is the problem and I am speaking from experience as I am just getting into on road. All the tough guys that have been running on road forever can say whatever they want. Reality is when a kid or just a newbie for that matter shows up to a track and the fast guys are running in every class just so they can get run time, it intimidates the crap out of the newbie's. They don't want to get in the way or cause an accident so they just don't race. It happened to me the first time I tried to get into on road at a different track. The fast guys ran every class and were quick to be pissed if a newbie bumped them. So I tried off road for a while.
Having said that I think it is also up to the track owner and the guys their racing. At our local track it is awesome. The fast guys run in the mod or expert class and they leave the lower classes for the newbie's. The solution is working as we continue to grow every race and now they are going to need to blow out a wall for more pit spaces ;-)
Doesn't matter what the "entry" class is. You can always find an inexpensive used car on RCTech.
Just my $.02.
12-02-2014, 06:32 AM
#78
I'm going to agree that USVTA is not entry level. It is a way to keep TC racing alive which it has done successfully. If you are starting out in TC it is probably the best way in, but be prepared for the TC setup and driving technique learning curve. If you stick with it, it will pay off. It did for me. I ran TC almost exclusively last year and when I had to run off-road again (lack of turnout for TC on the day I race), my driving and setup skills for off-road were better after the things I learned running a TC.
I like the idea of HPI and/or AE making an RTR VTA car. They could do it and I think the price point would be at about the same as a RTR Sprint 2 or $350. That would be an awesome entry into TC racing. You guys out there listening????
I like the idea of HPI and/or AE making an RTR VTA car. They could do it and I think the price point would be at about the same as a RTR Sprint 2 or $350. That would be an awesome entry into TC racing. You guys out there listening????
12-02-2014, 06:56 AM
#79
Until the entry level class at most tracks is a spec RTR, I don't see on-road growing.
VTA seems to be the most common entry class and it's fairly complicated to get the right tires, wheels, bodies, weight, battery, motor, etc.
That's a lot of things to bring together for a kid or someone who is totally new.
VTA seems to be the most common entry class and it's fairly complicated to get the right tires, wheels, bodies, weight, battery, motor, etc.
That's a lot of things to bring together for a kid or someone who is totally new.
12-02-2014, 07:39 AM
#80
By its very definition VTA is a starter class. To be clear I am not advacating a rule change before I get beratted. The weight is being kept at 1550 to allow older chassis to be competative. Why do you want older chassis to be competative? To allow NEW racers to enter the class at the lowest expense possible. If you are keeping the rules a certain way to help NEW racers, it is defacto ENTRY LEVEL class. I agree that it can be every bit as competative as 17.5 TC. I run USVTA and really enjoy it. But having full sponsored guys running against the newest kid in USVTA is even more despairaging loss than in 17.5. Why??? Because your (supposed to be) running the same stuff, how is that guy 5 seconds faster per lap than me, and blow by me on the straight? At least with 17.5 you have built in excuses. Motor, batt, tires,
ect. On the flip side, the guy that wins with a 10 year old TC4 has some bragging rights.
There must be something to this as at this past years Southern Nats, they seperated pro and sportsman VTA. What the real reasons are for doing so are unknown to me, but its comes down to one of two things; 1. They had enough request from newer/usponsered drivers that did want to run with, or would feel they would get in the way of the better guys. Or 2. They fast/sponsored guys didnt want a bunch of new/slow drivers getting in the way. In any case it sets a precedent for seperating drivers in a manner other than high number mains.
All that being said, instead of focusing on whats wrong, lets focus on whats can be done to make things better. While a "box stock" class may be difficult to do as every mfr puts a different motor in thier car, something close to box stock is a good start. But why does it have to be box stock. There was no such thing when many of us got started years ago. You went out, got a car, and appropriate electronics based on the class you wanted to run. Novice was generally 27t stock, and once you started running consistant laps, or a few fast laps compairable to the stock class, you got moved up. This is racing. I understand the need to operate as cost effectivly as possible as my RC budget is very thin, but you might, from time to time, have to spend some money if you want to run a certain class.
I also do not buy into the argument that USVTA is any real price difference from any other TC class. It may be a little cheaper, but only marginally. I say this only because if your just getting started, a used TC4 is going to be just as competative as a T4-14 even in 17.5. Because if you just getting started, the newest chassis, motor, battery wont make difference as your bouncing off the walls. You just bounce harder in 17.5
ect. On the flip side, the guy that wins with a 10 year old TC4 has some bragging rights.
There must be something to this as at this past years Southern Nats, they seperated pro and sportsman VTA. What the real reasons are for doing so are unknown to me, but its comes down to one of two things; 1. They had enough request from newer/usponsered drivers that did want to run with, or would feel they would get in the way of the better guys. Or 2. They fast/sponsored guys didnt want a bunch of new/slow drivers getting in the way. In any case it sets a precedent for seperating drivers in a manner other than high number mains.
All that being said, instead of focusing on whats wrong, lets focus on whats can be done to make things better. While a "box stock" class may be difficult to do as every mfr puts a different motor in thier car, something close to box stock is a good start. But why does it have to be box stock. There was no such thing when many of us got started years ago. You went out, got a car, and appropriate electronics based on the class you wanted to run. Novice was generally 27t stock, and once you started running consistant laps, or a few fast laps compairable to the stock class, you got moved up. This is racing. I understand the need to operate as cost effectivly as possible as my RC budget is very thin, but you might, from time to time, have to spend some money if you want to run a certain class.
I also do not buy into the argument that USVTA is any real price difference from any other TC class. It may be a little cheaper, but only marginally. I say this only because if your just getting started, a used TC4 is going to be just as competative as a T4-14 even in 17.5. Because if you just getting started, the newest chassis, motor, battery wont make difference as your bouncing off the walls. You just bounce harder in 17.5
12-02-2014, 08:09 AM
#81
Off-road will always get more exposure. Pics of a buggy flying through the air are just more exciting, period. And the RTR end of off-road just brings so many people in, even if they start out clueless to the racing part of the hobby.
BUT, on-road is due to make it's big comeback. At least I feel that way, things move in a cycle. VTA has IMHO made a big impression, and of course it leads to more guys that want to run 17.5 eventually. Locally a lot of the 17.5 hotshots (big race winners) have even jumped into the class. I would have never got back into TC based classes without VTA, the same can be said for others as well.
BUT, on-road is due to make it's big comeback. At least I feel that way, things move in a cycle. VTA has IMHO made a big impression, and of course it leads to more guys that want to run 17.5 eventually. Locally a lot of the 17.5 hotshots (big race winners) have even jumped into the class. I would have never got back into TC based classes without VTA, the same can be said for others as well.
The biggest problem I see with off-road is there is a glut of tracks which is a double edged sword. Yes more racers can race with less waiting time, but the tracks can't prosper because of all the competition for racers.....and not all racers can afford to go to every local event to support all the local tracks.
I came back to road racing with the TC6.2, in 17.5 touring car, and bought a VBC 05 set-up for VTA and it was a lot of fun. When I bought my second TC6.2 I sold off the VBC car and set the new one up for Spec GT......but another VTA car is in my future.
In my short 8 months back, from a 25 year layoff, I've noticed a huge amount of interest in VTA around the country, and I think that's the best thing to happen to RC road-racing since the invention of the slick tire. Seriously though, it has been a shot in the arm and it's been fun to watch the online videos.
There are a handful of VTA cars running here and about 8 guys running Spec GT (USGT), and another 12-15 guys running Expert 17.5 blinky in TC, I'd love to see those numbers double over the next year.....I hope you're right about that 'comeback'.
12-02-2014, 08:39 AM
#82
Reality is when a kid or just a newbie for that matter shows up to a track and the fast guys are running in every class just so they can get run time, it intimidates the crap out of the newbie's. They don't want to get in the way or cause an accident so they just don't race.
If you get the bug of r/c racing, without too many expenses early on (Breakages mostly) then the challenge is there to continue the hobby. (20 years later I'm still racing lol, with a few short breaks!)
I've considered giving up a few times but I always come back. Other people are different when they start up and would rather take up other interests.
12-02-2014, 09:02 AM
#83
Although I think it has been watered down and that the rules are too strict (specifically that extremely high minimum weight, if you're a beginner you don't want to start racing by slapping a half kilo of weights on your car), VTA still IS a beginner class. Just be careful racing VTA too well, lest you scare away new racers because they spent all of qualifying and racing being lapped. I've been guilty of that, and I still regret it.
In terms of RTR onroad cars I am starting to think that would be inadvisable. Onroad racing is HARD. You can't take a car with the box setup, slap the correct set of tires on it and go relatively fast like you can in dirt racing. In road racing if your car is bound up or has a problem that could be overlooked in offroad your car won't just be slow, it will be undriveable. RTR would only be feasible for really slow classes that require a spec tire, like Tamiya Mini, which don't take but 20 minutes to build anyway.
On the upside, as long as we stay on course and be friendly, avoid forming cliques and the general asshole-ishness that seems to permeate offroad, enforce the basic rules, humiliate cheaters, and help people be faster, we may be seeing the next resurgence of road racing.
In terms of RTR onroad cars I am starting to think that would be inadvisable. Onroad racing is HARD. You can't take a car with the box setup, slap the correct set of tires on it and go relatively fast like you can in dirt racing. In road racing if your car is bound up or has a problem that could be overlooked in offroad your car won't just be slow, it will be undriveable. RTR would only be feasible for really slow classes that require a spec tire, like Tamiya Mini, which don't take but 20 minutes to build anyway.
On the upside, as long as we stay on course and be friendly, avoid forming cliques and the general asshole-ishness that seems to permeate offroad, enforce the basic rules, humiliate cheaters, and help people be faster, we may be seeing the next resurgence of road racing.
12-02-2014, 09:09 AM
#84
On the upside, as long as we stay on course and be friendly, avoid forming cliques and the general asshole-ishness that seems to permeate offroad, enforce the basic rules, humiliate cheaters, and help people be faster, we may be seeing the next resurgence of road racing.
12-02-2014, 09:21 AM
#86
I still think and I get blasted everytime I mention it you need the fast guys to stay out of the lower classes and not have the intimidation factor for the entry level folks. Off road does a very good job of that. You just don't have the pros running in mod and then "for fun or for more race time" drop in a 17.5 and go kill everyone.
The fire back is always "well don't worry they will put you in the F Main. Why wouldn't you want to race with the best. This isn't kids soccer where everyone gets a trophy"
Here is the problem and I am speaking from experience as I am just getting into on road. All the tough guys that have been running on road forever can say whatever they want. Reality is when a kid or just a newbie for that matter shows up to a track and the fast guys are running in every class just so they can get run time, it intimidates the crap out of the newbie's. They don't want to get in the way or cause an accident so they just don't race. It happened to me the first time I tried to get into on road at a different track. The fast guys ran every class and were quick to be pissed if a newbie bumped them. So I tried off road for a while.
Having said that I think it is also up to the track owner and the guys their racing. At our local track it is awesome. The fast guys run in the mod or expert class and they leave the lower classes for the newbie's. The solution is working as we continue to grow every race and now they are going to need to blow out a wall for more pit spaces ;-)
Doesn't matter what the "entry" class is. You can always find an inexpensive used car on RCTech.
Just my $.02.
The fire back is always "well don't worry they will put you in the F Main. Why wouldn't you want to race with the best. This isn't kids soccer where everyone gets a trophy"
Here is the problem and I am speaking from experience as I am just getting into on road. All the tough guys that have been running on road forever can say whatever they want. Reality is when a kid or just a newbie for that matter shows up to a track and the fast guys are running in every class just so they can get run time, it intimidates the crap out of the newbie's. They don't want to get in the way or cause an accident so they just don't race. It happened to me the first time I tried to get into on road at a different track. The fast guys ran every class and were quick to be pissed if a newbie bumped them. So I tried off road for a while.
Having said that I think it is also up to the track owner and the guys their racing. At our local track it is awesome. The fast guys run in the mod or expert class and they leave the lower classes for the newbie's. The solution is working as we continue to grow every race and now they are going to need to blow out a wall for more pit spaces ;-)
Doesn't matter what the "entry" class is. You can always find an inexpensive used car on RCTech.
Just my $.02.
I can't speak to what racing experience you have but I've competed in road cycling, motocross and downhill skiing, all at the amatuer level which is probably the worst for people acting like dipshits, and in every instance it was tough being the new guy, trying to stay out of the way and occassionally getting yelled at. Competition brings out the best and worst in people. Nothing unique about RC in this regard.
12-02-2014, 09:28 AM
#87
I thought one of the points behind VTA is the scale looks, seeing cars that actually look like cars (same with the traxxas slash).
As far as adding weight to a car, isn't that what the hobby store and fellow racers are there for, to help the new person? Some get to caught up in beating everyone that they/ we forget to help the new racer.
I would like to believe that a box stock VTA/ RTR kit could exist. But getting manuf. to agree to build it is the obvious hard part.
As far as adding weight to a car, isn't that what the hobby store and fellow racers are there for, to help the new person? Some get to caught up in beating everyone that they/ we forget to help the new racer.
I would like to believe that a box stock VTA/ RTR kit could exist. But getting manuf. to agree to build it is the obvious hard part.
12-02-2014, 09:33 AM
#88
Something to keep in mind is many tracks do not have turnouts large enough to break classes into novice/expert. The extra entries from the fast guys running multiple classes is helping keep the doors open. While you might be correct that breaking the fast guys out into their own classes might be good for the long term health of the hobby it does nothing to ensure the rent gets paid today.
I can't speak to what racing experience you have but I've competed in road cycling, motocross and downhill skiing, all at the amatuer level which is probably the worst for people acting like dipshits, and in every instance it was tough being the new guy, trying to stay out of the way and occassionally getting yelled at. Competition brings out the best and worst in people. Nothing unique about RC in this regard.
I can't speak to what racing experience you have but I've competed in road cycling, motocross and downhill skiing, all at the amatuer level which is probably the worst for people acting like dipshits, and in every instance it was tough being the new guy, trying to stay out of the way and occassionally getting yelled at. Competition brings out the best and worst in people. Nothing unique about RC in this regard.
RC can just be intimidating for the beginner who literally cant get around the track without hitting 10 boards and the fast guy that runs 5 seconds a lap faster. Again i am speaking about the newest of newbies trying to enter. I am not talking about the novice that can at least get around the track. Those folks can suck it up and just run with the best and take a beating. At least they can get out of the way.
12-02-2014, 09:53 AM
#89
Here's an old thread that might have some useful information on how to run a beginner's class. Use any car (including RTR), nothing extra to buy, no fast guys running over the newbies, and no way to cheat:
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...pec-class.html
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...pec-class.html
12-02-2014, 10:10 AM
#90
That is interesting and i have always said there needs to be a run what you brung beginner class. That is how off road went crazy. Once someone in the beginner class had his first win or was just out of the gate faster (you knew who was not a beginner) the race director made them leave the class.
