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Old 08-11-2014, 04:05 PM   #16
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Running cars now and absolutely loving it …... I think I particularly enjoy the competitive side / pushing yourself to become better and being able to race against others and the clock.
+1

----
I have been racing cars on and off competitively since about 1984 (Tamiya Hornet ...No Guts No Glory)! I've tried planes, -expensive when you crash!!! Cars are my fav' for the reasons you already outlined.

My 2 pieces of advice, which have been echoed here already:
1) Get a car that has won a recent championship
2) Use a set up for that exact car from either or both the manufacturers site and/or the person who has won w/ that setup. But keep in mind what surface they used to win (as you don't want to set your car up for carpet if the setup is for asphalt).

Those are two places to start.
After that you'll find you'll want to tweak your car to your own liking/driving style.

Once your relatively dialed in, its a matter of skill. PRACTICE!

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Old 08-11-2014, 04:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
I echo the concerns about not building your own car - it is a core part of getting to know the car, and not every "expert" builder is quite as good as they think (having seen plenty of examples of "team driver" cars that have been bought second hand and have major build errors...)

As far as equipment goes, 99% of the top end equipment is very good, you've mentioned the car and powertrain but don't rule out the quality of the radio and servo, a well set up radio is just as important as a well set up car.

I also note you have decided to go for the "spend money first, set it up second, learn to drive it third". This is the mistake most new drivers make, assuming that the car wins races.

Actually drivers win races.

Those of us with some experience have realised that the most important thing is driving. Admittedly, you need a car that drives correctly to get any worthwhile practice in, but virtually all the cars on the market today are good out of the box and as long as you get the steering throw equal on both sides and set the ESC to the radio properly, you are ready for the track. You need to get the motor geared right for the class but if you have chosen a popular motor that info should be easy to find. You need the right tyres too.

Of course this advice tends to fall on deaf ears and the usual path through the hobby is "I'm slow so I need a better car/I'm still slow so I need a better motor/I'm still so slow so I need better setup equipment/I'm still slow so I need new tyres every run etc etc". Unfortunately this causes a lot of drivers to drop out early on because they think their equipment is holding them back. Those that do stay with it soon realise that the biggest improvements come from time on the track, not the cost of the gear you put on it.

I have very good equipment in my main cars, but I also have a 7 year-old spare car with cheaper equipment in it and I can lap it within a few tenths of a second. Yet most new drivers would turn their nose up at my spare car if it was listed for sale as it doesn't have the number 14 in the title...

The only positive about spending lots of money early on is that you can experience lots of different cars which gives you a better idea of the normal range of performance. Sometimes people persevere with their first car without realising how much of a mess they have made with the build and the setup.
A valid point. Using a spectrum Dx4R or something like that Ö. Apparently the best spectrum radio they make but I know there are definitely better radios out there. I know the quality of radio can be significant, I just spent the $3,500 on a Futaba 18CH for my turbine jets that need lots of chís.

OPEN to suggestions / radios!

ď I also note you have decided to go for the "spend money first, set it up second, learn to drive it third". This is the mistake most new drivers make, assuming that the car wins races. ď

I donít agree. I know cars on their own donít win races thatís obvious, but they do play their part BUT If your starting from scratch what better way to improve your racing that get the best race stuff first , make sure the BASE setup is OK then go out and practice, practice , practice and tine tune from there.
I donít see any point in trying to practice with substandard equipment to then need to upgrade down the track anyway to be that bit more competitive.

Of course drivers win races BUT !!!!!! the best drivers in the world are normally separated by tenths of a second at the end of the race correct !!! Take their car away from them, put less than the best equipment in their cars making them consistently a few 10ths of a second slower per lap than they were originally = Iím sure their rivals that were hot on the tail before will now beat them.

So why if you had the chance would you not start with the best equipment to gain those few extra % advantage and go from thereÖÖ Does that not make logical sense?

Granted im not racing in the worlds !!! but the same principle still applies .... every 1/10th counts
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Old 08-11-2014, 05:25 PM   #18
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Well said.

I assume Yokomo has setup sheets on their web page, i will have a look later on tonight and see what I can find.


As a point of interest and discussion though, can anyone tell me or category know what the most powerful and efficient components are on the market in general.

Surely there are manufactures out there that consistently make the best electrical components that are proven to be the best / most efficient even if it’s a few %.
  • Batteries ? power / to weight , IR and voltage sag
  • Motors ? power to weight / torque ( surly no all of these motors are made from the same materials / components)
  • Speed controllers ? weight vs efficiency
  • Battery wire vs resistance

or it is all basically the same and just differences in marketing HYPE !

( e.g. try running 3000 watts of power through a standard 69mm EDF fan with normal rc gear and batteries = fan explodes , motor and speedy fail, wire burns / goes brown and batteries puff.

However spend 5 x as much on the best German hand wound motors, top end speedy, German carbon DS31 fan, high quality wire and the best batteries and it works fine ……. Been there done that ! = the quality of components and the materials used made the difference !!!

I’m fascinated by electrical efficiency and performance and I would love to know what the car world has to offer


Normally i don't have time to post on forums but i had some down time due to weather delays / work and thought i would ask as many of these questions as i can while i can .... hopefully they are of some interest to others as well.
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Old 08-11-2014, 05:58 PM   #19
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Yokomo BD7 Setup can be found from here

http://www.teamyokomo.com/download/index.html

http://www.petitrc.com/reglages/yoko...YokomoBD7.html


As regards Radio... It seems that Futaba 4PX might suits your needs (and budget)


Hope this help
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:27 PM   #20
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I understand where you are coming from. I have a good job, can't spend my money on my previous hobbies due to personal circumstances so have recently got back in and spent a motsa on top end gear, no expense spared if you like.

Currently I'm "all the gear no idea" but I'm improving fast. So here is my opinion.

Electronics
Buy the top end ESC from;
LRP (caution, works best with their own motors!)
Hobbywing
muchmore
Orion
Orca

You should have no regrets with any of them in all honesty. Hell, buy two and compare back to back if you really want to know the differences between them.

Motor
LRP (especially if matched to their speedy!)
Hobbywing
Orion
Trinity D4
R1Wurks
Muchmore
Orca

Batteries
it's a bloody minefield.

Look for high discharge (50/60-100-120) and over 5600mah for 13.5T

Personally I run LRP 110c 6000's as they balance my car perfectly. They are about $120-$150 each. There are good and bad stories about all.

Buy a good charger (or two, or a double charger) to look after them. Similar brands again;
LRP
Orion
muchmore
iCharger (beware rip offs!)
hitec (or the clones like Protek, just as good in most cases)

You also need a 15-30A power supply for this plus your warmers, pit light, etc.

Servo
Savox 1251 is popular
However the brushless options from Sanwa, KO and Futaba are better.

Radio
Get a Sanwa M12, a Futaba 4PK-R on sale or wait for the 4PX. Piss off the spectrum as fast as you can. They are too often very troublesome.


The other thing you need is good tools! Go get a set of EDS, HUDY or possibly arrowmax drivers and the like. These will last lifetime hopefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcjetman View Post
That is a very valid point however the hobby shop is literally in the same building as the track so you can walk next door and buy anything at any time.
However I might buy another complete car anyway so I can do back-to-back testing on setups and if i break one i can always make the next round.
You will quickly learn not many buy their parts from there. Check the prices in store vs online, especially for yokomo........ I know it is nice to support a local business, but they also need to be realistic to racers.
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:46 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Clawhammers View Post
Yokomo BD7 Setup can be found from here

http://www.teamyokomo.com/download/index.html

http://www.petitrc.com/reglages/yoko...YokomoBD7.html


As regards Radio... It seems that Futaba 4PX might suits your needs (and budget)


Hope this help

Thanks for the links.

Will look at the radio as well.
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:50 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by rcjetman View Post
I don’t agree. I know cars on their own don’t win races that’s obvious, but they do play their part

So why if you had the chance would you not start with the best equipment to gain those few extra % advantage and go from there…… Does that not make logical sense?


The car you buy now will be replaced by a newer model before you've ever scratched the surface of proper setup. Good charger, sure. Good radio, esc, and servo, sure. Those will grow with you. Starting from scratch with a brand new higher end kit would be a very low priority. Did I see a mention of someone else building it? That would be your biggest initial hurdle to overcome, imho. Buy last years model, or really any model used if you find a seller you trust. Newer cars have a wider setup sweet spot than some older models, but also have far more adjustable parts than older kits... it's easier to get the car to handle okay, and harder to make it awesome.

I agree with the response you quoted, but if you're dead-set on spending extra cash up front.. nothing is stopping you. If most of the members here were totally honest, almost anyone that races buys stuff they REALLY don't need because it *might* be a shortcut like you're describing. That never ends... next week something newer and shinier will be out that's full of promised potential and gains. Practice and setup are your cheapest options that you'll have the most potential to gain with... if you want to spend $$$, it may be fun.. but often does. not. significantly. help.


It seems you already had your mind made up before your original post, but you've also had a few helpful comments from people experienced enough (and that have taken time out of their day) to try to help a stranger... Best of luck
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:55 PM   #23
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Oh, and here's my "money no object and I don't care about brand consistency build" for 13.5T blinky asphalt racing

Chassis: Yokomo BD7 ETS champion limited kit
Radio: Sanwa M12
Reciever: Sanwa RX472
Servo: Sanwa SRG-BLS v2
ESC: Orion R10.1
Motor: Trinity D4 13.5 (Express Motorsports Twister Edition)
Batteries: Muchmore Impact 6000
Charger & Power Supply: Muchmore Cell Master Double & CTX-P
Tyre Warmers: Muchmore CTX-W
Tools & Set-Up: HUDY, and lots of it
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Old 08-11-2014, 07:18 PM   #24
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If money is of no objective, you should invest in a high quality gauss meter and buy as many rotors you can get your hands on. Then measure each rotor until you end up with one with the highest magnetism. You can do the same concept for batteries. Get the one with the lowest IR.

The average joe has no chance at getting the things that sponsored racers get, so you need to sponsor yourself to be at that level, at least in the power source department.
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Old 08-11-2014, 07:22 PM   #25
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Since this thread is purely about excess in the guise of "gettin faster", let me chime in.

Donate all those cars to your local racers actually faster than you but without cash.

Then buy this for yourself:
http://www.amain.com/Yokomo-BD7-VerR...ar-Kit/p267822

You will never bring a touring car to it's potential. Only the pros will.

That doesnt mean you cant find satisfaction(or whatever you are looking for) in this hobby.
If you truly just want to try it all and be so excessive, then build a track on your property or commission for one ayt a park in your city.

Retire and spend your days never-quite-catching the fast kids.
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Old 08-11-2014, 07:50 PM   #26
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I would say the best advice right now for you my friend is to sell the car already built for you and buy a kit you build yourself. (The BD7 RS linked above is mighty fine/on par with the 2014 black and from HK half the price).

I know it sounds terrible, but so is your mistake.

Or drive it, but keep in mind you're part of someone else's project in that case.

What track are you racing at? Angle Park? Try and get to the Littlehampton track if you get the chance, it might change a thing or two in your mind.

All those hobbies you've been through are all fine and dandy but none gets close to eeking another 1/100s out of your car. Racing cars is racing yourself and if you keep buying the latest and greatest, you're only moving the goalposts. You get nowhere slowly.

PS. I cut my teeth on the Angle Park track with my first competitive car bought from those people you race against. Never crossed my mind to have anyone else build it even though I had no R/C experience back then. And just to give you some idea of the times, it was an YR4 M2J Pro which is still ready to race on my shelf and still has the first shell albeit severly battle scarred. If you will love this hobby you'll understand why that is. And just like someone else mentioned above, it gets out and sets a quick lap as a baseline for my current crop of machinnery every now and then. If I can't beat my own time with new gear, then I know I'm doing something wrong. Remember, you race against yourself, and can be the easiest or the hardest competitor to beat - the difference is how easy you cheat yourself.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:16 PM   #27
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What track are you racing at? Angle Park? Try and get to the Littlehampton track if you get the chance, it might change a thing or two in your mind.
This comment has me intrigued.

Angle Park "the parks" is no more. Majority of the AERCCC blokes are now racing at the rejuvenated Hobby Habit track. All bar the perimeter boards are replaced with new concrete curbing. It still accommodates drifters though, so the track can be slippery in parts.

But I'm interested why you suggest Littlehampton in particular?

I race there and really like it. I did one meet at HH and whilst there was quite a few more competitors, I just didn't like the "vibe" nor the track layout as much. It's definitely more technical, maybe as I'm still wearing L plates this is why it is less enjoyable
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:24 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by cplus View Post
I understand where you are coming from. I have a good job, can't spend my money on my previous hobbies due to personal circumstances so have recently got back in and spent a motsa on top end gear, no expense spared if you like.

Currently I'm "all the gear no idea" but I'm improving fast. So here is my opinion.

Electronics
Buy the top end ESC from;
LRP (caution, works best with their own motors!)
Hobbywing
muchmore
Orion
Orca

You should have no regrets with any of them in all honesty. Hell, buy two and compare back to back if you really want to know the differences between them.

Motor
LRP (especially if matched to their speedy!)
Hobbywing
Orion
Trinity D4
R1Wurks
Muchmore
Orca

Batteries
it's a bloody minefield.

Look for high discharge (50/60-100-120) and over 5600mah for 13.5T

Personally I run LRP 110c 6000's as they balance my car perfectly. They are about $120-$150 each. There are good and bad stories about all.

Buy a good charger (or two, or a double charger) to look after them. Similar brands again;
LRP
Orion
muchmore
iCharger (beware rip offs!)
hitec (or the clones like Protek, just as good in most cases)

You also need a 15-30A power supply for this plus your warmers, pit light, etc.

Servo
Savox 1251 is popular
However the brushless options from Sanwa, KO and Futaba are better.

Radio
Get a Sanwa M12, a Futaba 4PK-R on sale or wait for the 4PX. Piss off the spectrum as fast as you can. They are too often very troublesome.


The other thing you need is good tools! Go get a set of EDS, HUDY or possibly arrowmax drivers and the like. These will last lifetime hopefully.



You will quickly learn not many buy their parts from there. Check the prices in store vs online, especially for yokomo........ I know it is nice to support a local business, but they also need to be realistic to racers.
Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated I will have a look at those product lines.

As recommended to me, i have already purchased a hobby wing V10 13.5 motor, hobby wing black 3.2 120 speedy so that can be one setup.
Will buy a LRP 13.T combo tonight and test that as well. ( what about mod rotors not sure what I do or dont need)

have some short caase brushless servos on there way .06 second ones

HUDY professional set up kit thing awaiting my return.
Already have every tool, charger , power supply ectÖ. Really good German stuff.

As mentioned just purchased some ORCA , SMC batteries to test on their way. I also have a proper 2000 watt ďmountain radioĒ computer battery analyser that I will be testing the packs on to see their TRUE performance graph! Will post some findings when I get a change as I know batteries and their claims are VERY subjective lots of marketing BS.

Tyre warmers check !
Just purchased 8 different types of tires from different manufactures to see what compound and temp tire I like the most. Just googled the best tire and selected the most talked about ones.

Want to by one of those SKYRC car balance scales anyone know where to get them / in stock. Ö. Really cool looking gadget but the few places I have looked they are sold out.

Now I just need to find / make some time to go and test / practice.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:48 PM   #29
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If you have a hudy tweak station you don't need scales. They do the same job essentially.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:53 PM   #30
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Before this gets too off track and people get the wrong impression.

Im not wanting to spend money for the sake of itÖ.. There is no point in that.
All I was asking from the very beginning was what is the best stuff you can buy to save myself a lot of stuffing around and incorrect purchases. Iím not trying to conquer the world here or try and show offÖÖ.whats the point.
Iím just fascinated by high end electronics and extracting maximum performance from things. Doing well in races is satisfying also and the combination of the two is lots of fun.

When you come from a background of flying RC turbine jets all the RC car stuff appears to be proportionally cheap in comparison so why not get good stuff. The thing that confused me was all the engines appear to be between 90 - 120 $ so Iím assuming there really isnít much difference between them all. If thatís the case thatís fine just interested to know what you guys have come across in this wonderful hobby.

This thread is for others as well not just me I assume the brand info / choices that some have listed is of interest to other people as well.

With turbine motors itís a different story you can spend 1200 on a piece of crap or 9000 on the best German stuff and there is immense differences in quality and performance but the price is very different also.
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