2014 LAS VEGAS INTERNATIONAL INDOOR CHAMPIONSHIPS "IIC" PRESENTED BY SCOTTY ERNST
10-30-2014, 01:22 AM
#616
Interesting...wonder how they would work in 13.5. Still not a fan of having to true all my tires at the event but glad to know they didn't totally suck.
10-30-2014, 08:28 AM
#617
For what it's worth, this is from my experience racing spec tires. Copy/pasted from Seattle RC Racers thread....
Missed ya Garrett! Next time.
Hey, so I took one for the team tonight. I ran stripes all night on my stock 12. Spec tires that is. CRC purple stripes. They are basically lilacs front and rear, same as a wgt tire mounted on 12th scale wheels. I cut them a tad big: 42.3/41.3. Gave them a good rounding. Not knowing how they would react, I went a tic conservative and full doped the rear and 1/3 fronts for about 10 minutes with sxt3.0. Ran about 10 practice laps in early practice. I thought, they didn't do anything special, didn't do anything weird. Repeaked the pack, doped them again in the same way, waited till end of practice and whoa buddy, they felt pretty racy. Round 1 came, feeling pretty good. Talked a little trash. At the end, I was holding the broom and working the dust pan. Todd lapped me by a lap and a half and one point even let Stuart pass as he was rolling up on me. The car was super easy to drive. It felt like I had a huge window for set up. Anyone could drive these tires. The car seemed to have adequate cut, but didn't finish the corner well enough. But at the same token, the car never did anything stupid, super smooth. About a .5 seconds from fast to last. For round 2 I thought I will tighten up the nose a little. I went 2/3 sauce, more camber, more center spring. Oh boy, we had race car now! Fast laps dropped down to where they should, but fade remained the same... or fast to last was now .8ths. The car was pretty aggressive at first, that probably came from the camber and the fade probably came from the camber, so it made sense to go with less camber and more sauce. For the main, I went with 80% front sauce, full rear, less camber then R2 but more then R1 and even more center spring. Now we have a race car! Todd put it on the pole by .4ths, so I had to work a pass. For about 3 minutes I haunted Todd's tail feathers, checked up several times, aborted runs, and even punched him in the butt. Finally, sweaty and slobbered up, I made muscle pass through the middle as my car cleared his nose. The margin in the end was 3 seconds. The more front sauce, not so aggressive camber and more center spring was all the changes my car needed to run spec tires vs race tires to achieve a victory. I will say, I was kinda impressed. I think the spec tires have a bigger sweet spot then race tires. You just need to make some mild adjustments. The wear was reasonable, in 3 runs plus 20 laps of practice, I wore the fronts from 41.3 to 40.5, the rears from 42.3 to 41.8. That's about .2 front, .15 rear a run.... ironically a lot like wgt!
If this were to evolve into a 17.5 12 spec class, possibly replacing stock 12 at bigger events....I think it would work well. The logistics of tire hand out is always going to be a headache, but it would make for some great racing. This in only my first try with these tires. But I am impressed with the potential. They didn't suck!
Brian
_______
Missed ya Garrett! Next time.
Hey, so I took one for the team tonight. I ran stripes all night on my stock 12. Spec tires that is. CRC purple stripes. They are basically lilacs front and rear, same as a wgt tire mounted on 12th scale wheels. I cut them a tad big: 42.3/41.3. Gave them a good rounding. Not knowing how they would react, I went a tic conservative and full doped the rear and 1/3 fronts for about 10 minutes with sxt3.0. Ran about 10 practice laps in early practice. I thought, they didn't do anything special, didn't do anything weird. Repeaked the pack, doped them again in the same way, waited till end of practice and whoa buddy, they felt pretty racy. Round 1 came, feeling pretty good. Talked a little trash. At the end, I was holding the broom and working the dust pan. Todd lapped me by a lap and a half and one point even let Stuart pass as he was rolling up on me. The car was super easy to drive. It felt like I had a huge window for set up. Anyone could drive these tires. The car seemed to have adequate cut, but didn't finish the corner well enough. But at the same token, the car never did anything stupid, super smooth. About a .5 seconds from fast to last. For round 2 I thought I will tighten up the nose a little. I went 2/3 sauce, more camber, more center spring. Oh boy, we had race car now! Fast laps dropped down to where they should, but fade remained the same... or fast to last was now .8ths. The car was pretty aggressive at first, that probably came from the camber and the fade probably came from the camber, so it made sense to go with less camber and more sauce. For the main, I went with 80% front sauce, full rear, less camber then R2 but more then R1 and even more center spring. Now we have a race car! Todd put it on the pole by .4ths, so I had to work a pass. For about 3 minutes I haunted Todd's tail feathers, checked up several times, aborted runs, and even punched him in the butt. Finally, sweaty and slobbered up, I made muscle pass through the middle as my car cleared his nose. The margin in the end was 3 seconds. The more front sauce, not so aggressive camber and more center spring was all the changes my car needed to run spec tires vs race tires to achieve a victory. I will say, I was kinda impressed. I think the spec tires have a bigger sweet spot then race tires. You just need to make some mild adjustments. The wear was reasonable, in 3 runs plus 20 laps of practice, I wore the fronts from 41.3 to 40.5, the rears from 42.3 to 41.8. That's about .2 front, .15 rear a run.... ironically a lot like wgt!
If this were to evolve into a 17.5 12 spec class, possibly replacing stock 12 at bigger events....I think it would work well. The logistics of tire hand out is always going to be a headache, but it would make for some great racing. This in only my first try with these tires. But I am impressed with the potential. They didn't suck!
Brian
_______
I see a spec/handout tire simply as a way to narrow down what has to be purchased and brought/shipped to the track and so that there are no surprise hard or impossible-to-get compounds in the mix that are not readily available.
11-02-2014, 06:06 PM
#618
Rick,
Glad you cleared that up. Spec could be anything: blu/blu, pin/mag, yel/blk. Yes, that would great to know what you are going to race on prior to getting to an event. Last week, I just happened to test the stripe combo lilac like the wgt tires. I thought they worked great!
Without picking sides on this, there are clearly going to be some challenging things that would need to be resolved before drivers get on board.
1) If a spec tire was chosen by a manufacture, if would have to be on a singular wheel or someone would claim advantage/disadvantage. All cars are not built the same like a TC, so there's that hurdle.
2) Cost. If a promoter slaps a $30/set, there's gonna be some screaming. $20, maybe that leaves enough for a promoter, little bit of a deal for Joe Racer, still kind of a stinker for the Team guy.
3) Logistics. Getting say 5 sets at check in and all cut in time before a pit closes: tough. Also making it mandatory tire truing equipment is packed to an event.
I've barely been home since IIC. Was actually just in Denver and got a chance to hang with the 5280 guys. We talked spec tires, pros and cons. Some say spec tire is less of an issue in spec classes, that unobtanium spec motors is the real issue. I couldn't agree more. If we think spec classes are being won by over the shelf motors. Hello. Not the case. I'd like to see a show of hands who's won a spec class that didn't have some inside motor help.
So.... as a suggestion: who wants to see 12 stock go spec tire, hand out motor? Or does that simply castrate the class into something dumb? Or would it filter out the factory supported drivers into SS12 and further fluff up mod?
Stock 12 is by far the most popular. It's not broken. And lets be clear, I am not rallying the troops for mutiny. If there's a better way out there, lets talk about it. That, and because Scotty brought it up first.
If I knew that the 2015 XYZ Race was going to be blu/blu as a spec on ABC wheels for all 12th scale classes, I'd would go "yep, lets get some and test". "Same for everyone". I'd try it.
Brian
Glad you cleared that up. Spec could be anything: blu/blu, pin/mag, yel/blk. Yes, that would great to know what you are going to race on prior to getting to an event. Last week, I just happened to test the stripe combo lilac like the wgt tires. I thought they worked great!
Without picking sides on this, there are clearly going to be some challenging things that would need to be resolved before drivers get on board.
1) If a spec tire was chosen by a manufacture, if would have to be on a singular wheel or someone would claim advantage/disadvantage. All cars are not built the same like a TC, so there's that hurdle.
2) Cost. If a promoter slaps a $30/set, there's gonna be some screaming. $20, maybe that leaves enough for a promoter, little bit of a deal for Joe Racer, still kind of a stinker for the Team guy.
3) Logistics. Getting say 5 sets at check in and all cut in time before a pit closes: tough. Also making it mandatory tire truing equipment is packed to an event.
I've barely been home since IIC. Was actually just in Denver and got a chance to hang with the 5280 guys. We talked spec tires, pros and cons. Some say spec tire is less of an issue in spec classes, that unobtanium spec motors is the real issue. I couldn't agree more. If we think spec classes are being won by over the shelf motors. Hello. Not the case. I'd like to see a show of hands who's won a spec class that didn't have some inside motor help.
So.... as a suggestion: who wants to see 12 stock go spec tire, hand out motor? Or does that simply castrate the class into something dumb? Or would it filter out the factory supported drivers into SS12 and further fluff up mod?
Stock 12 is by far the most popular. It's not broken. And lets be clear, I am not rallying the troops for mutiny. If there's a better way out there, lets talk about it. That, and because Scotty brought it up first.
If I knew that the 2015 XYZ Race was going to be blu/blu as a spec on ABC wheels for all 12th scale classes, I'd would go "yep, lets get some and test". "Same for everyone". I'd try it.
Brian
11-02-2014, 10:33 PM
#619
Would be great if the spec tire were trued down race ready, 40,41,42mm, what ever the most popular sizes are for front and rear. Those who want it smaller can true it on their own.
11-03-2014, 03:40 AM
#620
Ri
I've barely been home since IIC. Was actually just in Denver and got a chance to hang with the 5280 guys. We talked spec tires, pros and cons. Some say spec tire is less of an issue in spec classes, that unobtanium spec motors is the real issue. I couldn't agree more. If we think spec classes are being won by over the shelf motors. Hello. Not the case. I'd like to see a show of hands who's won a spec class that didn't have some inside motor help.
So.... as a suggestion: who wants to see 12 stock go spec tire, hand out motor? Or does that simply castrate the class into something dumb? Or would it filter out the factory supported drivers into SS12 and further fluff up mod?
I've barely been home since IIC. Was actually just in Denver and got a chance to hang with the 5280 guys. We talked spec tires, pros and cons. Some say spec tire is less of an issue in spec classes, that unobtanium spec motors is the real issue. I couldn't agree more. If we think spec classes are being won by over the shelf motors. Hello. Not the case. I'd like to see a show of hands who's won a spec class that didn't have some inside motor help.
So.... as a suggestion: who wants to see 12 stock go spec tire, hand out motor? Or does that simply castrate the class into something dumb? Or would it filter out the factory supported drivers into SS12 and further fluff up mod?
11-03-2014, 06:27 AM
#621
no for hand out Motors
11-03-2014, 06:38 AM
#622
I would be more interested in a handout motor with the ability to tune with tires.
11-03-2014, 07:06 AM
#624
At last years IIC I was the last to true my WGT tires after my friend did his, another fellow racer and others in between. I really don't want to go thru this again for 12th scale even if I bring my own tire truer!
Would be great if the spec tire were trued down race ready, 40,41,42mm, what ever the most popular sizes are for front and rear. Those who want it smaller can true it on their own.
Would be great if the spec tire were trued down race ready, 40,41,42mm, what ever the most popular sizes are for front and rear. Those who want it smaller can true it on their own.
Pre-trued tires at "big" race size would be nice though.
11-03-2014, 07:54 AM
#625
Roy, I was in the same boat. My check in time was 5:30, by the time I got out of line, it was 5:45. I had to cut 2 sets of wgt tires. They had me by the scruff of the neck at 6:10. I'd rather not have to true in the room. I'm sure many did and thats not cool.
Mike SR, you just won Amateur TC with a hand out motor! Congrats! What bothers you about hand outs?
Dave, the interesting part of conversation is: are you racing the best drivers or are you racing the best factory supported drivers. Yes, we all have some skills. I like to think we all enjoy a tight race. But when you get "walked" .4ths a lap when you had a flawless run, you gotta ask yourself: did I miss the boat or is his stuff that much better?
Eric, 5 hours is enough to true tires. The logistic issue is that by the time you get through check in late in the day, pan cars are up first in the morning. If you are planning to scrub tires in the 2 minute practice sessions so they are ready for heats...well, you gotta be ready for that. Sure, nothing intelligent is getting learned from the opening hours, but it's tough on the program. Maybe a suggestion next year would be to check in pan cars first, TC's later???
I am sure there is enough sponsor cash coming in that dictates conditions. That may ultimately decide which way classes are set, but that's a whole other issue.
Mike SR, you just won Amateur TC with a hand out motor! Congrats! What bothers you about hand outs?
Dave, the interesting part of conversation is: are you racing the best drivers or are you racing the best factory supported drivers. Yes, we all have some skills. I like to think we all enjoy a tight race. But when you get "walked" .4ths a lap when you had a flawless run, you gotta ask yourself: did I miss the boat or is his stuff that much better?
Eric, 5 hours is enough to true tires. The logistic issue is that by the time you get through check in late in the day, pan cars are up first in the morning. If you are planning to scrub tires in the 2 minute practice sessions so they are ready for heats...well, you gotta be ready for that. Sure, nothing intelligent is getting learned from the opening hours, but it's tough on the program. Maybe a suggestion next year would be to check in pan cars first, TC's later???
I am sure there is enough sponsor cash coming in that dictates conditions. That may ultimately decide which way classes are set, but that's a whole other issue.
11-03-2014, 08:41 AM
#626
When Brian was down at 5280 we chatted a bit about this .. I really don't mind a spec tire but I don't see it being a real issue.
IMO .. putting money aside:
YOU CAN BUY the same tire compounds that the top guys are running off the shelf from your preferred tire manufacturer.
YOU CAN'T BUY a hand-wound "spec" motor with parts that are unavailable to the public.
As Brian mentioned, if you think big races are being won by off the shelf motors, think again.
Manufacturers themselves are verifying this notion .. if you want more quality then your going to pay more and at some point you just can't get the top 1% no matter how much you want to spend.
- Average "spec" motor = $
- Top 10% "spec" motor = $$
- Top 1% "spec" motor = better know someone
The logistics behind a handout motor are far less complex than a handout tire for 1/12.
11-03-2014, 09:14 AM
#627
11-03-2014, 09:19 AM
#628
Dave, the interesting part of conversation is: are you racing the best drivers or are you racing the best factory supported drivers. Yes, we all have some skills. I like to think we all enjoy a tight race. But when you get "walked" .4ths a lap when you had a flawless run, you gotta ask yourself: did I miss the boat or is his stuff that much better?
but, for me the motor testing in place this year at iic, made me feel good about my off-the-shelf stuff
May run mod next year anyway, especially if they run the Big track again
11-03-2014, 10:31 AM
#629
That's all the motor tech does is gives the average Joe a good feeling. Hand made motors for the team drivers are being tech approved even though they are not really a 17.5 motor. Everyone knows this but nobody wants to say anything. The race organisers don't want to make any of the sponsors mad because they won't sponsor the race any longer. I'm no Gods gift to rc racing, but the speed of some of the cars this year was ridiculous. I was getting pulled 5 to 10 feet down the straight. The average Joe has no chance of competing at these big races. I know I will get flamed for saying something but I think something needs to be done, it's not healthy for the hobby.
11-03-2014, 10:37 AM
#630
That's all the motor tech does is gives the average Joe a good feeling. Hand made motors for the team drivers are being tech approved even though they are not really a 17.5 motor. Everyone knows this but nobody wants to say anything. The race organisers don't want to make any of the sponsors mad because they won't sponsor the race any longer. I'm no Gods gift to rc racing, but the speed of some of the cars this year was ridiculous. I was getting pulled 5 to 10 feet down the straight. The average Joe has no chance of competing at these big races. I know I will get flamed for saying something but I think something needs to be done, it's not healthy for the hobby.
My off the shelf LRP & Schuurspeed motors did not loose anything to team motors
Perhaps you needed more time to test your stuff
Or race the spec class if you truly believe what you have posted