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Old 05-23-2014, 05:43 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by mario View Post
Just to answer to some of the comments mentioned here and to provide clear and correct facts - the Active Rear Suspension was first designed and used by Juraj Hudy at his first 1/8 off-road back in 1986 a long time before many of the other companies (brands) mentioned here even existed. See www.teamxray.com/XB8 for the photo of historical off-road. Later on this Active Rear Suspension was used by XRAY at the M18 again a long time before some of the other mentioned companies. The M18 was a revolutionary design with excellent handling characteristics and it seems that some of the current similar 1/10 touring car designs were inspired by the M18.

Mario Hudy
Maybe Xray should focus on developing some new, improved and really innovative suspension systems instead of dust of some old ideas from 1986. ARS is something many hobbyist can build at home. Now we want to see some real engineering from Xray especially because they are a racing only company.
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Old 05-23-2014, 06:59 AM   #77
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Thanks for the clarification. We should note that it also existed before this. The Porsche 928 used it ("Weissach axle") in 1978. The links were arranged a bit differently, but had the same effect.

To be fair, Mario did not use the word "invent" anywhere in this statement.

He also designed the Question Mark.
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Old 05-23-2014, 08:54 AM   #78
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I did the same thing on my tc4 back in the day but not any where are strong as the awesomatix
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Old 05-23-2014, 09:07 AM   #79
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Has anybody in RC actually invented anything? Aren't most of these ideas borrowed from other industries or real racing?

It seems like the key is to put all the best ideas into a package that is competitive AND compelling to racers. If that means rotating in an old idea and making it new again, then so be it. The nice thing about a company like Xray is that you know they will work tirelessly to not only get it exactly right, but also as easy to use as possible. There's a lot to be said for that. Look at their gear diff for previous inspiration. Still nobody else has made one that works as well and is as leak free, even the ones that copy their design.
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Old 05-23-2014, 09:25 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
Has anybody in RC actually invented anything? Aren't most of these ideas borrowed from other industries or real racing?

It seems like the key is to put all the best ideas into a package that is competitive AND compelling to racers. If that means rotating in an old idea and making it new again, then so be it. The nice thing about a company like Xray is that you know they will work tirelessly to not only get it exactly right, but also as easy to use as possible. There's a lot to be said for that. Look at their gear diff for previous inspiration. Still nobody else has made one that works as well and is as leak free, even the ones that copy their design.
Exactly.
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Old 05-23-2014, 09:49 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
Has anybody in RC actually invented anything? Aren't most of these ideas borrowed from other industries or real racing?

It seems like the key is to put all the best ideas into a package that is competitive AND compelling to racers. If that means rotating in an old idea and making it new again, then so be it. The nice thing about a company like Xray is that you know they will work tirelessly to not only get it exactly right, but also as easy to use as possible. There's a lot to be said for that. Look at their gear diff for previous inspiration. Still nobody else has made one that works as well and is as leak free, even the ones that copy their design.
You're making too much sense. How are we supposed to get down to some good ole' hating when you are intelligently putting things into perspective? Sheesh...
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:01 AM   #82
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1x years ago , 199x Year had this design for EP & GP Car
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:06 AM   #83
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Bump toe (or roll steer or whatever you want to call it except active, there is nothing active about this) has been around as long as suspension systems have. Very rarely do they work. Oval racing is one of the few exceptions where the lack of right hand turns allows you to do all kinds of crazy things, mainly for aero purposes.

Serpent had this on a nitro TC and abandoned it. Many others have tried, none have been very successful.

The problem is that cars are VERY sensitive to rear toe. Yes, having it change under certain circumstances can in theory be a big advantage but all passive ways of doing it will also cause toe changes that cant be predicted so easily such as catching a bump at just the wrong way to cause a spin inducing toe change. This is why everyone that has ever tried it before has gone back to a good old fashioned fixed toe.

As for Xray being innovative. Well if they can actually make this work superior to any non rear steer car, that would be an innovation.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:13 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
Has anybody in RC actually invented anything? Aren't most of these ideas borrowed from other industries or real racing?
The AMB system was invented for RC racing first, and then was adapted to karting and full-size racing later.

So there's one. That's probably it, though (unless you count the "truggy" - but those things are too stupid to claim proudly).
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:31 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
Bump toe (or roll steer or whatever you want to call it except active, there is nothing active about this) has been around as long as suspension systems have. Very rarely do they work.
Didn't the gear diff have a similar story? They're fairly ubiquitous now. And have even opened the door to using a diff up front, something that was unheard of previously. I don't know if the bump toe is what makes the AMX magical or not, but in certain circumstances, that car has so much corner speed it's hard to believe it's real. It's obviously captured the attention of other manufacturers.

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The AMB system was invented for RC racing first, and then was adapted to karting and full-size racing later.
I didn't know that! Fantastic bit of RC trivia, thank you!
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:38 AM   #86
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I didn't know that! Fantastic bit of RC trivia, thank you!
http://www.mylaps.com/index.php?pageID=17
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:50 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
Has anybody in RC actually invented anything? Aren't most of these ideas borrowed from other industries or real racing?

It seems like the key is to put all the best ideas into a package that is competitive AND compelling to racers. If that means rotating in an old idea and making it new again, then so be it. The nice thing about a company like Xray is that you know they will work tirelessly to not only get it exactly right, but also as easy to use as possible. There's a lot to be said for that. Look at their gear diff for previous inspiration. Still nobody else has made one that works as well and is as leak free, even the ones that copy their design.
This. And for me it isn't so much about innovation as much as having a car that works well out of the box and isn't shearing off stub axles or having settings drift just by looking at the car. I agree their marketing is a bit much but I find that easier to ignore than the latest TC of the week which usually ends up being a fragile or poorly manufactured POS.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:40 PM   #88
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You know, the thing about this thread is how judgmental it has gotten over a suspension not one of us has ever seen much less tried.

I have no doubt there have been many tries at the theory but the thing I have found about Hudy is he does the math. There is always a ton of different ways to accomplish any given task. You can look at any large club meet and prove there is always a racer looking for the next edge. But few non-engineers go to the trouble of modeling a system, looking at the trade offs, testing various prototypes, then adopting the best compromise available. From what I can see, that engineering is what Xray drivers expect and are willing to pay for.

I for one am willing to take a close look at what he came up with, understand what conditions he thinks it will work under, then decide if I want to part with my hard earned racing budget. I rather consider it professional courtesy.
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Old 05-23-2014, 01:03 PM   #89
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WOW @ throwing Mario under the bus for no reason. Yes, this suspension idea is currently on the Awesomatix car. But before that, it has been on other cars as well, just like shaft drive. This is a tuning option. It may or may not work for the racer. As somebody stated earlier, Serpent is doing the same thing. I for one am looking forward to seeing how they mount it, and the C-hub design. Using C-hubs with castor will change the wheel base. On the Awesomatix car, that's the way wheel base adjustments are made, by adjusting rear castor. I would hope, or expect 0deg castor blocks are planned, otherwise those using it will have to figure out proper shimming to compensate the change in wheel base. Any company giving us more OPTIONS for tuning is moving in the right direction. As stated, it is an option, you don't have to use it. A lot of things from real cars have been incorporated into our kits. Very rarely does Xray release something that does not have a benefit in someway.
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Old 05-23-2014, 01:18 PM   #90
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Just because a car has a rear toe-link doesn't mean it is actually using bump toe. It depends on the angle and length of the toe link. Most cars (other than the H arm design most RC cars use) with independent rear suspension have a toe link but few use it to get bump toe. The AMX has a toe link just like the old TC3 and many other cars but I doubt they are using it get much if any toe change. It's not the design I am questioning but the intent of its use.
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