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Old 09-28-2005, 02:12 PM   #196
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No, I meant the Volvo S60. Protoform produced and marketed a two Volvo bodies, the S40 and S60. I have both currently in my possession. It was just that the S40 was a 190mm only produced body whereas the S60 was found in 190mm and 200mm widths.
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Old 09-28-2005, 02:16 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramyuras
Well taken but not all body's work with the different track, this summer i tried the 3.0 stratus outdoor with rubber and the car was all over the track and i then tried the mazda6 andit handle much better, now this weekend i tried the mazda on carpet it was good but the stratus was better so there you go different body for different tracks.
Thank you Ramyuras. You just made my point. You run what works for you, your setup, and the conditions/track, not just because the "sponsored" guys run it. Many racers don't see it the way you just explained.
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Old 09-28-2005, 02:24 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLock
I have my body thing figured out. I just tire of the racers that think that the body is the only reason why Baker, Cyrul, Swauger, et. al. the sponsored guys win races. Those same guys won last year with the Mazda 6; before that, the Stratus 2.1. Those guys figured out the track, conditions, the correct setup of their cars, and how to get their cars around the track as fast as they could on the shortest line around it. The body plays a part in it; it is just not the only thing like some would have you to believe. But, the G6 bandwagon is rolling on by and I see the masses lining up, ready to jump on it as it rolls past them!!
Nobody is saying the body is the only reason they win races, it is a part of the set-up. The problem is super high traction foam carpet racing places different demands on a body then foam carpet club racing, or rubber tire carpet or asphalt etc. Every body style handles differently. As Dale said, you won't see a G6 for Nitro racing because it won't provide the necessary downforce for that application. Now, I'm sure YOU could probably tune around a body that provides minimal downforce in the Nitro TC application, but many mere mortals will require more downforce to make their set-ups work.

What I get tired of is people who tell everyone that the body makes no difference, or that any shell will work, when that's quite simply not the case.

Everyone will run Parma Alfas, and Protoform G6's because they WERE DESIGNED for this application, and that's why every one runs them, not because Barry's running it.
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Old 09-28-2005, 02:52 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CypressMidWest
.....Everyone will run Parma Alfas, and Protoform G6's because they WERE DESIGNED for this application, and that's why every one runs them, not because Barry's running it.
If this was only true!!! But, many will run them because Barry Baker et. al. ran it.

Oh, I do run what works best for me at race time and get riduculed because it is not what Sponsored Racer X was running at the pre-Worlds, Snowbirds, etc. It is funny to me that many run body X just because, not because of.
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Old 09-28-2005, 02:54 PM   #200
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Oh, thanks for the good, clean debate on the subject, fellas. Good discussion without slamming each other. This is how most discussions about topics should be.
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Old 09-28-2005, 03:02 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLock
If this was only true!!! But, many will run them because Barry Baker et. al. ran it.

Oh, I do run what works best for me at race time and get riduculed because it is not what Sponsored Racer X was running at the pre-Worlds, Snowbirds, etc. It is funny to me that many run body X just because, not because of.

I dunno, I don't run anything because anybody else does, but I'll try it if it looks better, and if it works I'll keep it. The followers generally just run what the fast guys run because they couldn't tell the difference anyway.
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Old 09-28-2005, 03:16 PM   #202
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If you want to be real about this, the truth is that the Parma body probably has the best overall handling for the most people. I have run Losi Alfas, Dodge 2.0, 3.0s, Old Protoform alfas, new ones, the S60, the originals stratus from Andy's and Protoform etc. Yes, these other bodies do work. In fact, sometimes they can help if your car is lacking in a certain area. The reason most people run a Parma is that it works, period. I saw plenty of Mazda 6s on foam cars when the body first came out. Then they all went away. The Parma was working better, and people realized it. The Losi alfa still works. I even saw a Losi driver try one last weekend, but he said something to the effect of "it had too much steering". It may work, but the Parma was working better apparently. I also saw Eric Anderson crank out 12.2 laps in his stock main with a G6, so I'm assuming it's a pretty good body too.

While the locals at a particular track may get "green gas tank syndrome", and just run whatever is hot, if you travel to big races, you can be assured that most of the guys in the higher mains try everything they can just to see if it gets them .2 a lap. If they body makes a difference for them, they will use what makes them fast.
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Old 09-28-2005, 03:23 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CypressMidWest
I dunno, I don't run anything because anybody else does, but I'll try it if it looks better, and if it works I'll keep it. The followers generally just run what the fast guys run because they couldn't tell the difference anyway.
Or they don't have the $$ to test new bodies and running a pro's favorite body is generally a safe bet.
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Old 09-28-2005, 05:35 PM   #204
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I've been working on this responce for a while. My phone has been going kinda nuts today. I need a secretary.

Brian NcGreevy: Thankyou. Much appreciated.

Anders: Well said. Incidentally, the S60 was chosen and modelled in such a way as to be competitive in the UK with their huge outdoor tracks, and long straightaways. I absolutely loved the real car (even though it turned out to be only a concept car) and was pretty happy with the way the finished Pf S60 turned out. My hopes for dashed very quickly however when one member of the BRCA body committee declared it illegal for not being "realistic" enough. It had nothing to do with the "PCC" lower grills either. Nobody in the BRCA could ever explain to me what was wrong with it. It baffles me to this very day. I sometimes wonder how the BRCA feels about the current crop of Ride and Rayspeed bodies. ??

ps: I got a chance to see your sons race in Vegas. Always a treat! Super fast as usual - they just needed a few breaks.

JLock: I hope we're on the same page and talking about 190mm bodies. (The Stratus 2.1 you mentioned is a 200mm gas body. Gas bodies are a different animal completely.)
To the best of my knowledge our Mazda 6 has never been used in winning a major carpet/foam event -anywhere. It was designed for rubber tire racing on carpet or pavement and has won an incredible number of major event worldwide in the last 23 months. The Parma Alfa on the other hand, to the best of my knowledge has never won a rubber tire race anywhere, yet has won just about every carpet race you could imagine on North America in the last 21 months.
Quite simply, rc sedan racing has evolved to a state-of-the-art where every component of the car is specialized - including the bodies. Actually the bodies have become more critical than ever because of the incredible gains in battery/chassis/and tire technology. The current generation of rc sedans are just flatout fast on a large track. The various body styles that are being bantered about in this thread all have their own specialties. The pro drivers mentioned are well aware of this. If fact they are pretty hip to any new component and/or whats on the manufacturers drawing boards, because they have a competitive drive in them to be the best, and dread the thought of missing any possible technical advantage.
Consider this: In any form of "real" auto racing where they use purpose-built racecars, a major part of the budget is for aerodynamic developement and windtunnel testing. Even in the relatively crude (technologically) Nextel Cup series where the bodies have to conform to a series of rigid body template inspections (to insure "parity" - ya right lol!), you will still find that all the top teams have a full time aerodynamisist (with a ridiculous 6 figure salary) and you'll find they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on wind tunnel time. This is done because they all know the supreme value of aero balance, efficiency and downforce.
Now, it's a proven fact that these big heavy Nextel Cup cars are extremely aero sensetive even though they weigh 3200 lb. and average approx. 150 mph at most tracks. Just think for a moment about how these mumbers compared with rc sedans that weigh approx. 50 ounces yet race at speeds one third as fast os the full size cars.
If that doesn't remove all doubt as to the effects a properly designed rc sedan body has on performance, simply remove the wing from your body at the next weekend race you attend. Better yet, try a few practice laps without any body on your chassis at all. I know this is extreme, but I'm just trying to make a point. The body is a key component in the performance of any on-road rc car.
I don't know if this stuff actually answeres anyones questions, however I hope it sheds a little light onto the fact that: different body shapes do different things at different speeds on different type of surfaces. The pro driver tends to get a handle on it a little quicker than the rest of us because they are smart, talented and dedicated.

Dale - PROTOform

Last edited by daleepp; 09-28-2005 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 09-29-2005, 12:08 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daleepp
I've been working on this responce for a while. My phone has been going kinda nuts today. I need a secretary.

Brian NcGreevy: Thankyou. Much appreciated.

Anders: Well said. Incidentally, the S60 was chosen and modelled in such a way as to be competitive in the UK with their huge outdoor tracks, and long straightaways. I absolutely loved the real car (even though it turned out to be only a concept car) and was pretty happy with the way the finished Pf S60 turned out. My hopes for dashed very quickly however when one member of the BRCA body committee declared it illegal for not being "realistic" enough. It had nothing to do with the "PCC" lower grills either. Nobody in the BRCA could ever explain to me what was wrong with it. It baffles me to this very day. I sometimes wonder how the BRCA feels about the current crop of Ride and Rayspeed bodies. ??

ps: I got a chance to see your sons race in Vegas. Always a treat! Super fast as usual - they just needed a few breaks.

JLock: I hope we're on the same page and talking about 190mm bodies. (The Stratus 2.1 you mentioned is a 200mm gas body. Gas bodies are a different animal completely.)
To the best of my knowledge our Mazda 6 has never been used in winning a major carpet/foam event -anywhere. It was designed for rubber tire racing on carpet or pavement and has won an incredible number of major event worldwide in the last 23 months. The Parma Alfa on the other hand, to the best of my knowledge has never won a rubber tire race anywhere, yet has won just about every carpet race you could imagine on North America in the last 21 months.
Quite simply, rc sedan racing has evolved to a state-of-the-art where every component of the car is specialized - including the bodies. Actually the bodies have become more critical than ever because of the incredible gains in battery/chassis/and tire technology. The current generation of rc sedans are just flatout fast on a large track. The various body styles that are being bantered about in this thread all have their own specialties. The pro drivers mentioned are well aware of this. If fact they are pretty hip to any new component and/or whats on the manufacturers drawing boards, because they have a competitive drive in them to be the best, and dread the thought of missing any possible technical advantage.
Consider this: In any form of "real" auto racing where they use purpose-built racecars, a major part of the budget is for aerodynamic developement and windtunnel testing. Even in the relatively crude (technologically) Nextel Cup series where the bodies have to conform to a series of rigid body template inspections (to insure "parity" - ya right lol!), you will still find that all the top teams have a full time aerodynamisist (with a ridiculous 6 figure salary) and you'll find they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on wind tunnel time. This is done because they all know the supreme value of aero balance, efficiency and downforce.
Now, it's a proven fact that these big heavy Nextel Cup cars are extremely aero sensetive even though they weigh 3200 lb. and average approx. 150 mph at most tracks. Just think for a moment about how these mumbers compared with rc sedans that weigh approx. 50 ounces yet race at speeds one third as fast os the full size cars.
If that doesn't remove all doubt as to the effects a properly designed rc sedan body has on performance, simply remove the wing from your body at the next weekend race you attend. Better yet, try a few practice laps without any body on your chassis at all. I know this is extreme, but I'm just trying to make a point. The body is a key component in the performance of any on-road rc car.
I don't know if this stuff actually answeres anyones questions, however I hope it sheds a little light onto the fact that: different body shapes do different things at different speeds on different type of surfaces. The pro driver tends to get a handle on it a little quicker than the rest of us because they are smart, talented and dedicated.

Dale - PROTOform
Well said but just like any other conversation there will be a "BUT" or "what if" to follow. We should just take the info in and go from there.
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Old 09-29-2005, 06:03 AM   #206
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See, this is why I like Dale and Protoform. He explains his engineering thoughts for each body. If anyone would bother to read what he writes about each body you can make a choice for yourself. One of the great things about RC racing is the same dynamics that go into full scale race cars apply to RC cars. The better you understand what's going on with your car, the faster you're gonna be.

There was an RC mag that's now out of business that built it's own RC body wind tunnel. They used it for oval racing bodies. They found that a body that generated negative downforce (lift) was faster on high speed ovals. Before the wind tunnel tests, no one even considered that.

So Dale have I sucked up enough for a free body yet?
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Old 09-29-2005, 06:56 AM   #207
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Dale, well said! I have alway been thought the same thing and always heard lost of crtitisism from other for my opinions. After last weekends findings, I will be paying close attention to the way I mount my bodies.
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Old 09-29-2005, 07:03 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
There was an RC mag that's now out of business that built it's own RC body wind tunnel. They used it for oval racing bodies. They found that a body that generated negative downforce (lift) was faster on high speed ovals. Before the wind tunnel tests, no one even considered that.
Well, I say the cars where too slow then....
But its a balance. Look at Nascar cars. No wing, but they dont dare to run without the spoiler either.
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Old 09-29-2005, 07:07 AM   #209
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Dale,

Its a shame that the PRI show is not in Indy this year. We could have had allot of fun with this wind tunnel talk. Spitzer Race Cars has a full blown wind tunnel to test new ideas out for their dragsters. What makes it perfect is that its right around scale. Now seeing that Mick (Snyder) is like his second son, I think I could get us in there fairly easily. I had chance to see them using it and it was pretty cool!

We could bring all the bodies and test them out and put this thing to bed once and for all. Hmmthis sounds like a good article for the magazine.


BTWLooks like Im going to the show!
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Old 09-29-2005, 07:19 AM   #210
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I have talked to our aerodynamics here at Volvo ( oh yes, we have a windtunnel ), but they always look strange to me as soon as they see how our cars looks from underside.
On eof the most important thing is to have it as flat as possible there.
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