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Old 09-21-2005, 03:34 PM   #151
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The Chevy Malibu, the Pontiac G6, the Saab 9-5, and the Vauxhall Vectra are all the same platform.

The Chevy Cobalt is shared with the Saturn Ion.

Dale, I have always appreciated your efforts to make bodies that are at least close to their full size counterparts. For that reason I have only run Protoform bodies for the last several years. I would love to see ROAR adopt more realistic appearing rules, but that won't happen. Racers want bodies that handle.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new Vette body. I know you're going for scale, but have you done anything to help handling?

Oh, and we need to talk about the 200mm lola body
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Old 09-21-2005, 04:39 PM   #152
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i know this was prolly answered somewhere in here but are these bodies out yet?
thanks
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Old 09-21-2005, 04:42 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick51
i know this was prolly answered somewhere in here but are these bodies out yet?
thanks
Yup, at pretty much every hobby shop that ordered some....
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Old 09-21-2005, 04:47 PM   #154
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Quote:
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Yup, at pretty much every hobby shop that ordered some....
awsome, thanks
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Old 09-21-2005, 05:35 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
Oh, and we need to talk about the 200mm lola body
Hmm, finally i can actually use my pan car the right way....o yea this is gonna be fun.
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Old 09-23-2005, 09:37 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
The Chevy Malibu, the Pontiac G6, the Saab 9-5, and the Vauxhall Vectra are all the same platform.

The Chevy Cobalt is shared with the Saturn Ion.

. . .
Same platform, but sometimes quite different cars. As I mentioned, the G6 has an unusually long wheelbase.

A should also add that in my previous post I missed that the Parma Alfa body, which is "quite competitive" also has real racing credentials in Europe. It just does not look quite like the real car. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
. . . I would love to see ROAR adopt more realistic appearing rules, but that won't happen. Racers want bodies that handle.
. . .
What everyone wants is to win. I think there is an easier way to adjust the rules, but it will take a bit of work to set up. We should use a "handicap" system, like Speed World Challenge uses, though a bit simplified.

1. When a body is submitted, it is mounted up on a standard dummy chassis. The chassis would be something like a 5" wide solid plate, shaped roughly like a typical chassis, with solid axles, wheels and tires (all to roughly simulate typical under-body airflow).

2. This is tested in a wind-tunnel. This is the sticky point. ROAR would have to find a wind-tunnel to rent time on, or preferably, have the time donated. It might be possible to get a deal from one of the car makers in exchange for a sponsorship advertising agreement.

3. A crude formula would be applied, and the minimum weight adjustment posted on the ROAR website. The formula would be a simple average for a "typical" race track. Everyone would want to argue the formula, but that is nothing new. For the time being I would base it strictly on overall drag. Maybe a few years from now, there might be a factor for down-force added.

4. There would be an exemption for "true scale" bodies. A true scale body for 1/10th would have a "declared scale" between 1/9th and 1/11th. That would give manufacturers a bit of leeway for chosing a body. After that, *every* measurement on the body would have to be within 2% of a real sample car. The manufacturer would submit proof of scale with, perhaps, 5 - 10 actual measurements (maybe certified by the manufacturer of the original car, or someone else with reasonable authority). After that, anyone could challenge *any* measurement on the body at any time, but if the challenge comes after the body has been approved by the sanctioning organization, then the challenger has to prove the error. That is to say, they would have to satisfy the organizers that the body was *not* scale (probably by showing up with the actual car and measuring tape). A body that would be denied the exemption just gets tested and handicapped like all the others.

I do not think anyone would actually bother trying to use the "true scale" exemption, but if they do, we could all celebrate the day one passes. :-)

The result would be that you might have the HPI Vauxhall Astra #7381 with a "0 gram" penalty, so a car using that body would have a minimum weight of 1500 grams, while a car using a Protoform Stratus X might have something like 150 grams penalty for a minimum weight of 1650 grams. So at a big flowing track with long straights you might use the Stratus because the weight penalty would not be as important, but at a small carpet track, you might pick a more scale appearing body with less weight penalty. A number of bodies would end up performing roughly equally at most races, with the extra weight, and these would give variety.
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Old 09-23-2005, 04:29 PM   #157
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Great idea!

Who's gonna do it?
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Old 09-23-2005, 06:10 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileIT
Same platform, but sometimes quite different cars. As I mentioned, the G6 has an unusually long wheelbase.

A should also add that in my previous post I missed that the Parma Alfa body, which is "quite competitive" also has real racing credentials in Europe. It just does not look quite like the real car. :-)



What everyone wants is to win. I think there is an easier way to adjust the rules, but it will take a bit of work to set up. We should use a "handicap" system, like Speed World Challenge uses, though a bit simplified.

1. When a body is submitted, it is mounted up on a standard dummy chassis. The chassis would be something like a 5" wide solid plate, shaped roughly like a typical chassis, with solid axles, wheels and tires (all to roughly simulate typical under-body airflow).

2. This is tested in a wind-tunnel. This is the sticky point. ROAR would have to find a wind-tunnel to rent time on, or preferably, have the time donated. It might be possible to get a deal from one of the car makers in exchange for a sponsorship advertising agreement.

3. A crude formula would be applied, and the minimum weight adjustment posted on the ROAR website. The formula would be a simple average for a "typical" race track. Everyone would want to argue the formula, but that is nothing new. For the time being I would base it strictly on overall drag. Maybe a few years from now, there might be a factor for down-force added.

4. There would be an exemption for "true scale" bodies. A true scale body for 1/10th would have a "declared scale" between 1/9th and 1/11th. That would give manufacturers a bit of leeway for chosing a body. After that, *every* measurement on the body would have to be within 2% of a real sample car. The manufacturer would submit proof of scale with, perhaps, 5 - 10 actual measurements (maybe certified by the manufacturer of the original car, or someone else with reasonable authority). After that, anyone could challenge *any* measurement on the body at any time, but if the challenge comes after the body has been approved by the sanctioning organization, then the challenger has to prove the error. That is to say, they would have to satisfy the organizers that the body was *not* scale (probably by showing up with the actual car and measuring tape). A body that would be denied the exemption just gets tested and handicapped like all the others.

I do not think anyone would actually bother trying to use the "true scale" exemption, but if they do, we could all celebrate the day one passes. :-)

The result would be that you might have the HPI Vauxhall Astra #7381 with a "0 gram" penalty, so a car using that body would have a minimum weight of 1500 grams, while a car using a Protoform Stratus X might have something like 150 grams penalty for a minimum weight of 1650 grams. So at a big flowing track with long straights you might use the Stratus because the weight penalty would not be as important, but at a small carpet track, you might pick a more scale appearing body with less weight penalty. A number of bodies would end up performing roughly equally at most races, with the extra weight, and these would give variety.

Cool idea. Way too complicated.
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Old 09-24-2005, 08:26 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
Great idea!

Who's gonna do it?
Actually, we just had 2 tracks in Toronto go away this past year leaving us with no track at all. There might be another track opening up. If that happens, we might actually see some new ideas. Maybe this idea, or maybe some other new idea. One thing I can say is, the old ideas do not work around here. Tracks keep closing.
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Old 09-24-2005, 08:29 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raffaelli
Cool idea. Way too complicated.
Ok. Remove the "true scale" exemption. That leaves "less drag = heavier the weight." Simple.
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Old 09-27-2005, 12:21 AM   #161
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So...how did the G6 do at the IIC? Did it make a showing, or was the field still full of Parma Alfas?

Josh
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:19 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileIT
Ok. Remove the "true scale" exemption. That leaves "less drag = heavier the weight." Simple.
Not simple. How do you enforce it? Another problem is who has a wind tunnel? And who interprets the data? Last time I looked there is no ROAR tech center with state of the art measuring equipment.

Even Dale admits he looks at real cars and tries to determine what would work as an RC body. What works aerodynamicly in full scale may not work in RC.
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:52 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileIT
Actually, we just had 2 tracks in Toronto go away this past year leaving us with no track at all. There might be another track opening up. If that happens, we might actually see some new ideas. Maybe this idea, or maybe some other new idea. One thing I can say is, the old ideas do not work around here. Tracks keep closing.
Do you honestly...even for a remote second believe that the bodies are why the tracks closed in Toronto???

At last year's Takeoff Race I absolutely dreaded running with most of the mid-to-low main guys from TO...(I'm in that range myself)...they show NO courtesy...were rude...were hacking on cars left right and center..often driving their cars far off their intended line to make contact with other cars...

it simply wsn't enjoyable..and it had nothign to do with what bodies were run.

A larger factor might be the astronomical overhead of operating a track in a major city like TO...and I know that at TORC there wasn't much of an on-site shop to help offset the costs of track operations....

I applaud Dale for continuing to work on high performance bodies that have some resemblance to their full scale counterparts.

The discussion regarding scale appearance bodies has gone around in circles for years. Remember when NASCAR was actually stock car racing? Now they have Aerodynamically sculpted bodies (most of which being FWD cars) on their machines...

We race for performance....I know I'll have a G6 to try out...

That's not to say that there is no place for scale bodies....I have an HPI 05 Mustang GT in at my local Ford Dealer right now having colour matching paint sprayed onto it to match the car in my garage.....purely for display purposes...

Also....have you noticed that more and more the class is being referred to as 1/10 Sedan as opposed to TC??
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Old 09-27-2005, 08:03 AM   #164
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Actually the GTO has more racing heritage than majority of the RC replica bodies out there. The GTO, or should i say Holden Commodore, has been raced for years in the Australia V8 Supercar series in Australia. Anyone who has witnessed 'Bathurst' will know what i mean. The Holden Commodore V8 was brought to America and rebadged by Pontiac and called a GTO. If you check out pics of the GTO and the commodore, you can see why alot of GTO owners have had original Commodore front ends sent to them... the GTO isnt very appealing in the front end IMHO.

Oh and PF is right about the GTO (Commodores) shape. Its alot bulkier than the G6, and an Australian company, Frewer Bodies, created V8 Commodore shells, and they handled very bad due to the proportions. Way too top heavy. If you strapped on a milk carton to your TC, it would have handled alot better!
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Old 09-27-2005, 09:18 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedo
So...how did the G6 do at the IIC? Did it make a showing, or was the field still full of Parma Alfas?

Josh
I saw a couple of videos from the race and unfortunately, they are borderline quality. I *think* I saw a G6 being raced. There did seem to be some variety, however, the video was not of a Main, so by the last round, there might have been a clearly dominant body.
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