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Old 04-07-2014, 08:35 PM   #61
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Spec is great for events.

And it doesn't stop people testing different tyres for club days and practice.

Spec tyres for club days can work but are often problematic.
Have to agree with you on this.
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Old 04-07-2014, 09:22 PM   #62
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only commenting on the first post, haven't read any others so I don't know if its been brought up..

you did the math on the width of the tire, now do the math on diameter..

so which form of racing uses a 30+ inch rim...
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:04 PM   #63
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so which form of racing uses a 30+ inch rim...
Racing Donks in the hood lol
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Old 04-08-2014, 03:34 AM   #64
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only commenting on the first post, haven't read any others so I don't know if its been brought up..

you did the math on the width of the tire, now do the math on diameter..

so which form of racing uses a 30+ inch rim...
Yep, I thought that was going to be the direction of the thread, didn't even consider the width.
A smaller diameter tyre would have less centrifugal force acting on it so may be less likely to blow out. It may also overheat quicker and have less grip overall.
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Old 04-08-2014, 06:04 AM   #65
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I worked at a major tire company (full size). Where I didn't work in tire design I talked to those guys a lot since I was a racer. One of the interesting things was how to get a tire from not coming apart at high speed from centrifugal forces. The answer was what was called a cap ply. These were done in different ways depending on the speed rating. It is basically a strand of rubber coated Kevlar applied circumferentially across the area where the tread cap will go. Now a regular passenger car tire is not injection molded but is built up from the inside out so this is the last step before the tread rubber is applied. The insert could be cap belted and then the tire bonded to that but the handling characteristics would change dramatically. Any solution I know of will do that though. Oh here is an idea, lets put mod on a 10.5 motor limit and slow them down. NASCAR is planning on that next season since track speeds are exceeding 200 mph on 1-1/2 mile tracks. It doesn't change the actual racing head to head, some will say it actually improves it.
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Old 04-08-2014, 08:16 AM   #66
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Anytime you mention "slow the cars down", that usually meets with a ton of opposition. A limit on what Mod guys run will get you ripped a new one!! Instead of trying to slow the cars down, how about tire technology needing to catch up with ESC/motor technology. We are running 21st Century electronics with 20th Century tires. The cap tire thing has been tried before but maybe the tires need to be capped a different way. The previous capped tires (which I have some in my possession), wore out quickly with more powerful motor due to the quality of rubber covering the fiberglass mesh covering the inner part of the tire. Maybe belted tires need to come back with different formulated rubber. I know the HPI belted tires I used to run on outdoor asphalt/concrete parking lot track back in the day lasted a long time.

So, the way I see this, the rubber formulation along with belting and shore of insert is the key to this. I don't think we need to change the size of the tire, just the technology into making a better tire.
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:32 AM   #67
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Yep, I thought that was going to be the direction of the thread, didn't even consider the width.
A smaller diameter tyre would have less centrifugal force acting on it so may be less likely to blow out. It may also overheat quicker and have less grip overall.
To achieve the same car speed you have to rotate the smaller diameter tyre faster (i.e. gear up). I'm guessing you end up with the same or similar forces.

And the smaller diameter tyre will have less grip, wear out quicker, handle the bumps worse and overheat easier.

Really, the current tyre sizes are fine, as long as races are sensible and choose some decent ones. 22 for a set of Sorex tyres that are always perfectly glued onto strong wheels, have good grip even when they're worn through to the insert, and work in a massive range of temperatures. It's probably one of the main selling points of TC racing in the UK compared to most other classes which are a ball-ache with tyres.
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:47 AM   #68
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I know, and to me, that takes the fun out of it. When I got into onroad racing, that was the fun part, trying to find the right tires, shock oils, shock springs, ride height, and gearing that got you into the competition mix. I personally don't like this "spec" thing the way it is being done now because I feel it is being done for the wrong reasons. In my area, they have "spec'ed" the tires for club racing at my carpet track. The tires chosen wear out quickly (luck to get two good race days out of them at $30 a set). I have tires in my possession that are slightly better and can get way more than two race days out of them but because of certain political things going on at my local track, I cannot run the tires of my choice.
Wouldn't make you any faster there. I have 4+ race weekends on my tires and have no complaints. Make things easier and at the end of the day I have more money in my pocket not having to "guess" at what tire the track will work with.

As you have see with F1 almost everyone runs the same tire at our track because it works. Are there other options out there? Yes but they aren't used because they don't work as well.
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Old 04-08-2014, 10:44 AM   #69
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Im loving the spec tire racing . One less thing to stock up on or question. Heck been running since November on same set havnt even rotated them . Yea the front left is paper thin but havnt had to make any changes to stay up front with the fast guys . I probably have 70 runs on them and probably could get 5-10 more before the FL is junk .. sweep 32s(carpet racing)
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Old 04-08-2014, 01:36 PM   #70
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Wouldn't make you any faster there. I have 4+ race weekends on my tires and have no complaints. Make things easier and at the end of the day I have more money in my pocket not having to "guess" at what tire the track will work with.

As you have see with F1 almost everyone runs the same tire at our track because it works. Are there other options out there? Yes but they aren't used because they don't work as well.
There are better tires out there but it is easier for folks like you to buy into the propoganda. Keep thinking that you are saving money if you like to keep fooling yourself. But we have had this conversation many times before Joe, so I don't know why you want to keep having it with me. We agree to disagree. I would like nothing better than to not talk about this with you because we will never agree on it, so drop it with me.

Oh, and Robert B tested a bunch of tires before F1 got off the ground at our track so we went with what he recommended. We did not "spec" the tire, but through someone that took the time to test various tires, we went with what works the best at this time. If another brand of tire works better, someone will find out because we don't "limit" ourselves to one tire for the class like TC because we are open to experimentation.
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Old 04-08-2014, 01:50 PM   #71
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There are better tires out there but it is easier for folks like you to buy into the propoganda. Keep thinking that you are saving money if you like to keep fooling yourself. But we have had this conversation many times before Joe, so I don't know why you want to keep having it with me. We agree to disagree. I would like nothing better than to not talk about this with you because we will never agree on it, so drop it with me.

Oh, and Robert B tested a bunch of tires before F1 got off the ground at our track so we went with what he recommended. We did not "spec" the tire, but through someone that took the time to test various tires, we went with what works the best at this time. If another brand of tire works better, someone will find out because we don't "limit" ourselves to one tire for the class like TC because we are open to experimentation.
You are fully able to state your opinion as am I. However I do like to have both sides of the story. I know Robert put the time in and it really did help the class. As far as it being "propaganda" I think you are a little off topic.
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Old 04-08-2014, 02:05 PM   #72
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Rick is correct in that the problems at the warm-up were manufacturer specific. Yesterday one of the racers put on a set of Sorex and all the issues went away. His car ran consistently throughout his run, turning low laps times from start to finish. Besides the belts being a bit thin they were not very straight and tended to wander a bit over the tyre.
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Old 04-08-2014, 03:21 PM   #73
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Dale, you'd be amazed at the number of people that don't realise how good we have it over here!!

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To achieve the same car speed you have to rotate the smaller diameter tyre faster (i.e. gear up). I'm guessing you end up with the same or similar forces.

And the smaller diameter tyre will have less grip, wear out quicker, handle the bumps worse and overheat easier.

Really, the current tyre sizes are fine, as long as races are sensible and choose some decent ones. 22 for a set of Sorex tyres that are always perfectly glued onto strong wheels, have good grip even when they're worn through to the insert, and work in a massive range of temperatures. It's probably one of the main selling points of TC racing in the UK compared to most other classes which are a ball-ache with tyres.
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Old 04-09-2014, 04:35 AM   #74
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I knew that I was setting my self up on the motor thing. Speed is intoxicating and it is awesome in the hands of the guys that can handle it.
Tire technology can certainly advance, the main issue would surely be the cost. Dollars can almost always solve any problem.
By the way, in passenger tire car design, the tread belts are the most defining tire performance component. Put them slightly off center or worse, with a center line that wanders and the tire will be crap. We spent a lot of engineering time and money making sure that they were cut straight and installed straight. If not you got lateral force variations that wreaked havoc to the tire and what ever you installed it on.
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Old 04-09-2014, 05:27 AM   #75
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Yes foam tyres are amazing. They never chunk, they keep a constant diameter, you only need one compound and they're great in the wet.

Oh hang on, that's rubber tyres, my bad...
Sarcasm mucho?

The days of racing foam tyres on TC were good, (especially 30mm on the rear were and still are for some including myself! great) but for a worlds race I don't think it's the way to go at all.

The days of finding that one elusive tyre and your friends trying to work out what it was, in hindsight was rather funny
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