Stock Motors, where is the innovation?
07-14-2005, 10:21 AM
#46
Originally Posted by Fran
Well put Jon, but don't you think that that stock racing lets the driver "create" his speed, by motor tuning? Thus taking a "even playing field" and coloring it with the drivers abilities and talent? my .02
07-14-2005, 10:23 AM
#47
Since the subject has already moved from the original subject to a tanget... I figured I might move it to another tangent:
Are we as Americans now at a disadvantage to the rest of the world by splitting up all of our classes to the Nth degree?
Why do we have novice, intermediate, sportsman, expert, and pro levels of what should be the same class in some cases?
As a "pro level" driver I fully well understand how frusterating it can be driving with different levels of drivers within a heat or a main, but I think as the whole we as racers would get better by more competition to drive us harder.
Everyone wants to be able to win a class and take home a trophy... but if you are not racing against people who are better than you, you will never get significantly better. I think we as Americans have a growing sense of entitlement like "I should have a class that I can win... I should not have to race again so-and-so because they are better than me" Isn't it in everyone's best interest to "get better?"
Doesn't that make things more fun seeing an improvement and being able to beat ANYONE who shows up not just the few guys you have pretty good odds to beat?
At some point we have to suck it up and just admit to ourselves that alot of the time there are people out there who are better than you at certain things... that should not make us feel cheated or dejected and make us want to give up.... just resolve yourself, and go back out there and do your best!
Under this other sytem:
Stock should be the novice/beginer class.
19T should be an intermediary class.
mod should be the expert class.
Let me know what you guys think!
Are we as Americans now at a disadvantage to the rest of the world by splitting up all of our classes to the Nth degree?
Why do we have novice, intermediate, sportsman, expert, and pro levels of what should be the same class in some cases?
As a "pro level" driver I fully well understand how frusterating it can be driving with different levels of drivers within a heat or a main, but I think as the whole we as racers would get better by more competition to drive us harder.
Everyone wants to be able to win a class and take home a trophy... but if you are not racing against people who are better than you, you will never get significantly better. I think we as Americans have a growing sense of entitlement like "I should have a class that I can win... I should not have to race again so-and-so because they are better than me" Isn't it in everyone's best interest to "get better?"
Doesn't that make things more fun seeing an improvement and being able to beat ANYONE who shows up not just the few guys you have pretty good odds to beat?
At some point we have to suck it up and just admit to ourselves that alot of the time there are people out there who are better than you at certain things... that should not make us feel cheated or dejected and make us want to give up.... just resolve yourself, and go back out there and do your best!
Under this other sytem:
Stock should be the novice/beginer class.
19T should be an intermediary class.
mod should be the expert class.
Let me know what you guys think!
07-14-2005, 10:27 AM
#48
Very well said Steve. That's exactly why I usually run modified everywhere I go. Even SoCal. If I don't race with the guys who are better than me, I'll never improve. I haven't won a main in probably 6 months. But I've improved tremendously because of the guys I'm racing with.
07-14-2005, 10:28 AM
#49
When I first started racing the motors were macbuchi 540 closed endbells. Could not change anything. Lesiurer Electrionics actually introduced an electric motor with changeable brushes and they were not legal .It was actually an airplane motor. Then Kyosho introduced the Lemans motors 240 & a 360(not legal because can size was to long).Then we could not cut the coms and then we could.Next we had the rebuildable which we have now. Speed wise they have increased in speed each step. Look at the rotors - first the were solid now look at them. Stock motors have come along way in 25 years!
07-14-2005, 10:33 AM
#50
stock 23T or stock 27T? there is different..
07-14-2005, 10:38 AM
#51
Tech Master
iTrader: (72)
Steve, I almost agree. Using Dillon as an example, under your system he would be driving 19t. The problem is he would be racing against drivers much better than him like Jason E. and Tony F. That wouldn't be fair to anyone. I completely agree with you about driving with faster drivers make you faster, I did it myself, but there should be enough seperation so slower drivers don't get discouraged and fast drivers don't get upset with slow traffic. 
07-14-2005, 11:09 AM
#53
The motor companies simply are not making those motors you suggest. How is ROAR supposed to come up with a comprehensive set of rules for R/C motors that don't exist?
For instance, Novak and LRP met with ROAR officals and came up with a set of rules for brushless. Now, I bet hardly anybody in ROAR really knows much about brushless technology, but the designers of the Novak and LRP systems do. So they came up with a set of rules to be followed so that the different companies can produce competitive systems under those rules.
I don't think the designers at Reedy, Trinity, and Orion have made an effort to update the brushed motor rules with ROAR. And without an existing improved motor submitted to ROAR to base a set of rules on, i doubt anything will change. But why blame ROAR? They simply make rules to keep racing fair and organized for racers, tracks, and manufactuers. How are they supposed to create rules without help specialized in the field?
I agree with Novice (27 turn, 24 degree), Amateur (19 turn 24 degree), and Professional (Modified). Novice could try racing with Amateur but not Pro, Amateur could try racing against Pro's, but nobody could race below their level. How to rate a racers level and ensure they race within their respective class, i don't know.
For instance, Novak and LRP met with ROAR officals and came up with a set of rules for brushless. Now, I bet hardly anybody in ROAR really knows much about brushless technology, but the designers of the Novak and LRP systems do. So they came up with a set of rules to be followed so that the different companies can produce competitive systems under those rules.
I don't think the designers at Reedy, Trinity, and Orion have made an effort to update the brushed motor rules with ROAR. And without an existing improved motor submitted to ROAR to base a set of rules on, i doubt anything will change. But why blame ROAR? They simply make rules to keep racing fair and organized for racers, tracks, and manufactuers. How are they supposed to create rules without help specialized in the field?
I agree with Novice (27 turn, 24 degree), Amateur (19 turn 24 degree), and Professional (Modified). Novice could try racing with Amateur but not Pro, Amateur could try racing against Pro's, but nobody could race below their level. How to rate a racers level and ensure they race within their respective class, i don't know.
07-14-2005, 11:21 AM
#55
Tech Master
iTrader: (72)
Jon, lets say those guys or even you really don't like mod and don't want to race it because they really enjoy 19t. Do you think it's fair to force them to run something they hate? That will lead to people leaving the hobby in droves.
Scrubb, good point, but do we know the motor builders have not asked ROAR to allow new types of brushed motors?
Scrubb, good point, but do we know the motor builders have not asked ROAR to allow new types of brushed motors?
07-14-2005, 11:21 AM
#56
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Especially when Novak and LRP really don't know much about brushless technology.
What's that supposed to mean?
07-14-2005, 11:21 AM
#57
Tech Addict
Originally Posted by AdrianM
That's a really good idea! Stock should be a class up to the regional level after that only 19T and Open Mod.
patrick - Brushless is not developed yet. The Novak 5800 system is as fast as a 19T but is not as reliable due to speedo overheating, etc. For Mod no one can get a brushless speedo to live long enough to actually sell anything that is as fast as a 7-8 tun brushed mod. They will get it soon and it will be great but we aren't there yet.
I agree ROAR is done...but what else have we got? Until we have a proven alternative we have to work with what we have.
patrick - Brushless is not developed yet. The Novak 5800 system is as fast as a 19T but is not as reliable due to speedo overheating, etc. For Mod no one can get a brushless speedo to live long enough to actually sell anything that is as fast as a 7-8 tun brushed mod. They will get it soon and it will be great but we aren't there yet.
I agree ROAR is done...but what else have we got? Until we have a proven alternative we have to work with what we have.
dude i won with jason e a 4 hour enduro at tamiya with a off the shelf 5800 brushless system that never stop working..500 plus laps 27 laps over the field, team novak ran the hottest mod system after 100 laps it quit ...slow is fast....our laps times were only .7 slower than TEAM NOVAK....this was last summer and it was hot my .02
07-14-2005, 11:28 AM
#58
Guys, lets not turn this into a brushed vs brushless discussion.
Running brushed or brushless is the same thing as photographers sticking to film SLR cameras or digital SLRs. While brushed motors/film SLR cameras require more working on, there is also a certain level of finasse and skill required to run them and the final result is a faster car/better photo exposure.
Running brushed or brushless is the same thing as photographers sticking to film SLR cameras or digital SLRs. While brushed motors/film SLR cameras require more working on, there is also a certain level of finasse and skill required to run them and the final result is a faster car/better photo exposure.
07-14-2005, 11:30 AM
#59
nope, but we do know they haven't produced a motor for them to base a new set of rules on, except brushless, and they are making rules for them and approving them. Which proves that ROAR is flexible and adaptive to the manufacturers.
07-14-2005, 11:35 AM
#60
We had a lap limit to establish who races what. At the time, if you couldn't turn 27 laps in stock, you couldn't race 19. Mod was a joke, because everyone who thought they could drive a 7 single put it on the track and beat the rest of us up (broken cars). Just like novice classes, once you're turning the same laps or lap times as the faster racers, you no longer race novice. There's no perfect system and never will be.