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Old 07-04-2005, 09:21 AM   #1
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Default About High-end Materials used in our TC

Hi,

I would like to discuss about the materials used in our High end cars, what are they + and - features, lightness vs strenghtness and why are they so much differences between a same type material but from a different brand etc...

Is Titanium Lighter than Alloy? Is it stronger?

Whats the difference between Delrin and nylon plastic?

What is 64 Titanium? I notice alluminium can be very fragile when used in stressfull applications: CVDs \ Spools, one-way

Why Titanium isnt used more often is it more expensive?

Also Carbon Fiber is commonly used now for a cars but they are lots of diiferent types of quality and I heard that the ones we have is a 'RC model grade' kind of CF wich isnt the best at all

I think for cost reasons, most of the so called Titanium or alloy used in our cars isnt even close to the quality and real specs of these materials

See ya, hope to hear from you guys, at least a little
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Old 07-04-2005, 09:47 AM   #2
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RC companies know that if they made their parts "too strong", they will lose sales from the spare parts/hop-up business.
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Old 07-04-2005, 10:08 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 403forbidden
RC companies know that if they made their parts "too strong", they will lose sales from the spare parts/hop-up business.
It's all relative. If Xray can make a car that will NEVER break, than wouldn't everyone want to buy that car and not the others? That means massive increases in profit. And people would only spend money with Xray when they need to buy another kit.
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Old 07-04-2005, 10:21 AM   #4
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No because most people in this hobby already accept broken parts as a "cost of doing business."

There's no reason to make stronger parts if people don't demand it.

Right now, the popular demand is having a car win a major race. That's why all the major manufacturers focus a lot of attention there. They know that they will make more sales if their car wins a major race.
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Old 07-04-2005, 10:44 AM   #5
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i believe when they say 64 titanium they are refering to 6AL-4V which is a very good and most common grade of titanium.it is not cheap in any way.very strong for its weight.aluminum is strong also but compared to other harder alloys it is pretty soft.a standard aluminum used is 6061-T6.it is pretty hard,durable,and relatively inexpensive.the hardest of the aluminums is 7075-T6.it is alot more expensive than 6061,shares alot of the same properties but is a little harder.2024 and 2011 are also pretty common.2024 is not common in the rc industry.it is very hard also.2011 is very common.it is a free machining aluminum alloy frequently used for standoffs and other quick run screw machine parts.it is very easy to machine but does not anodize very well due to it being very pourous.a good way to spot 2011 is when you have a very dull funny anodized finish.carbon fiber is also used alot in R/C.all of the C/F is high quality,it is just layed in different ways.component grade carbon fiber is commonly used.the fibers are layed at 0 degrees and 90 degrees.then you have a quasi isotropic lay.this is the fibers layed at 0,90,and 45 degrees.the materials are the same but the quasi isotropic has more wasted material bringing the cost up.with quasi isotropic you will have more torsional strength than the component grade but the component grade will be more rigid from front to rear.you can get even higher grade than that by going to a high modulous carbon fiber.this would not be cost effective to use in the hobby.the cost is 3 to 4 times what the standard grade is.it would really drive up the costs of kits.hope this helps
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Old 07-04-2005, 11:09 AM   #6
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Jason has posted a very good summary. Not to take anything from it, but add maybe a little.

Aluminum alloy ranges from what is known as 1100 being pure aluminum, which is very soft and not heatreatable. Many alloys are available in an "O" condition which is done to facilitate fabrication operations like bending and forming. After these operations the parts are heatreated to a desired condition. These are the "T" values you often see like T6, T3, T42 etc. So to clear a common confusion, the base number of 2024, or 6061, or 7075 is the recipe to make the material, the T value is how you "cook it" to get the desired final strength. That said, many beleive the larger the number the sronger the material, this is not always true.

It is also normally assumed that 7075 is the strongest alloy normally available. 7050 is stronger and fairly available.

Titanium comes in many grades also. The major differences being how they classify it. Commercial, Aerospace, Sport. I don't know the difference but suspect it involves quality levels. The major alloys seem to be 6al-4v and 3al-2.5v.

I want to ask Jason , when referencing Quasi formats of carbonfibre layups, I notice no mention of -45. I always reference quasi as 0,45,-45,90. I realize there is more to this but wonder why it is seldom mentioned. Carbon like Ti has similar grades. Aerospace types have some fairly exotic weaves compared to commercial or sports types and seem to have a tighter woven structure.

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Old 07-04-2005, 02:06 PM   #7
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Wow, thanks guys you ve been most informative!!

Is titanium in rc grade harder and lighter than most of the alluminium used in Rc?
Wouldnt titanium be a better material replacement of alloy for rc application?


Thanks again!!!
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Old 07-04-2005, 03:34 PM   #8
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the carbon fiber lay that i have dealt with has been layed at 0 degrees,90 degrees and 45 degrees.the fibers have a cross hatch pattern that i really dont know which way + or - they refer to but i believe it is the same as having it layed in both + and -.however when you use quasi isotropic it is now a directional material.they do have many different grades of fibers.thanks for the addition of your knowledge.i didnt want to confuse anyone with all the different tempers of the materials but you explained it very well.there are many different aluminums for many different applications.we make alot of military parts at our shop and 5083 and 5086 seems to be very popular with them as it is a dead soft bulletproof alloy.there is so many types of aluminum and or any alloy that you can quickly get confused .thanks for your input.your experience is much appreciated.

as for titanium,yes it is very nice to have titanium on your car but in many places it would be overkill.aluminum is more than suficiant for what they are being used for.titanium is very expensive when compared to any of the aluminums.car kit costs would go through the roof.hope this helps.
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Old 07-04-2005, 04:49 PM   #9
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But if titanium is so strong, why do I always here of people stripping out Ti screws often (even with a good allen driver)?
-Josh
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Old 07-04-2005, 05:14 PM   #10
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Any car that would be UN-BREAKABLE would also be too heavy to race. Given that something has to break the art is to only break what is the easiest to replace in the least amount of time. Also, I think most of the ti screws are not heat treated so that its cheaper to replace the screw than to replace a bulkhead. After you replace any major part the car has to go onto the tweakboard, break a screw or minor part and you wont spend as much time tweaking the car. Ti screws are stronger, but heavier than alloy screws. So the only trick is to use the proper screw for the right hole.
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Old 07-04-2005, 05:16 PM   #11
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titanium is very strong but it has its limits.it is not as strong as say 304 stainless steel or inconel but it is extremely strong for its weight.small allen screws do not have that much strength to the broached hex.you will be amazed how much force and tourqe is created with an allen wrench with such a fine pitch thread
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Old 07-04-2005, 05:19 PM   #12
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titanium screws are about 50% lighter than standard steel screws.aluminum is lighter but not as strong.
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Old 07-04-2005, 05:22 PM   #13
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Aluminum is cheaper to buy and faster to work with when it comes to mass production for retail sales on a world wide scale. Also it is better at transferring heat than titainium. So aluminum has its place in r/c. When your producing 1 million kits to sell all over the world, production speed and material cost are also factors to consider.
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Old 07-04-2005, 06:03 PM   #14
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With Aluminium, the numbers such as 7075 are the id number for a curtain alloy.

The first letter, in this case the 7, id's the metal as having its mager alloy element as magnesium. "075" is a chronological number of when the alloy was registed.

So this number in no way tells you the strength of the metal, only its alloys.
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Old 07-04-2005, 07:18 PM   #15
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Jason I only asked about the -45 thing since it seldom appears outside composite circles. If as you've stated the carbon in single ply is multi directional, at 90 degrees for each direction, and even strength is derived from both directions, then a 0 and 90 are identical, as would the 45,-45.

When using unidirectional, or fabrics with different strengths in the warp vs the fill, the 0,45,-45,90 layup becomes critical to be equal strength in each direction.

As I posted previously while fabbing a carbon sheet to cut a chassis plate from, I found with the fabric I used, that laying it up Quasi-isotropic and balanced was overkill. I still drive that plate on my L4 but have since layed up another plate that is yet to be cut, but tailered the layup to provide more strength in certain orientations over others.

One issue with the Ti vs Aluminum vs steel arena, Ti is somewhat more elastic and when used as a fastener is prone to galling and seizure if not assembled with a lube. The idea of the titanium components is fine, but costs will go up as machineing it is more involved and the raw material is more expensive. With Ti weighing more than aluminum, but being stronger, you definately need to make the dimension of the part smaller. I guess the issue becomes how small can it become. Ti is always ( most always) a smart substitute for steel parts, it is sometimes hard to justify for an aluminum replacement.

Like in full size motorsports, many times the real exotic stuff is handmade and cost become less of an issue. Going back to RC car early days, you will find that things such as carbonfibre was used for RC before many other hobby/sports even had a clue about it.

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