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Old 09-01-2002, 03:47 PM   #31
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It's a good idea, we all want to race longer and it's very doable. 12scale racers have been doing it for years, stock motors can take 8 minute races, just have to work with the gearing and with the batteries today 6 minutes is not a problem. Our track might be trying it out as well.
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Old 09-01-2002, 05:30 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sigearhead
It's a good idea, we all want to race longer and it's very doable. 12scale racers have been doing it for years, stock motors can take 8 minute races, just have to work with the gearing and with the batteries today 6 minutes is not a problem. Our track might be trying it out as well.
Trying to compare a light weight 12th scale car to a heavier touring car run time wise are like apples to oranges. 12th scales are much much lighter and they are direct drive so there isn't that much of a strain on the motors like the strain that a touring car will place on a motor. If you sit back and think about it.........12th scale has been the only class with extended run time. Even when sedan stock and mod were 4min 12th scale was more than 4min. We'll have to see what the future holds for us racers but in the meantime it's good that we all have shared our opinions and no one is ready to fight Let me know how things turn out at your track when you guys try the 6min thing.
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Old 09-01-2002, 07:16 PM   #33
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I think the main thing I'm looking for is run time. I want to go out and race! I went to one track and they only let the Micros only race for 3 minutes! I was out there racing and it was over before you knew it! I don't really like gas cars. Lucky them though, they get to have 30 minute mains and all... hehe. If I could race electric for 30 minutes... I'd do it! Hmmm A Brushless Stock Motor sounds good! hehe... Anyways, I guess the only way right now for me is 1/12th scale. And I'm glad we now have that class here. Hmmmm, I'll have to think of something....... hehe.... Good thing I didn't say 8 minute Touring! hehehe..... Think Bearings might help a stock motor out? And do bearings add that much cost to a stock motor? Something I should ask Trinity.......
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Old 09-01-2002, 08:02 PM   #34
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Hey that's a good point Joe- I truly believe they could put bearings int he stock motors for the price they sell them for now. I mean, look how much production has increased in the last few years. It certainly looks cost effective to me- and if I'm not mistaken, cost was the ONLY reason they choose to keep bushings over bearings in stock motors, right? Plus, (and this applies to all of the little guys like me) you wouldn't have to worry about some scum showing up with bearings on one side of his stock motor hidden by a brass shim to look like a bushing. I know for a fact that most club races even to the regional level don't remove the endbells off the winner's motors to check for a bearing. If bearings were legal, then it would make a more even playing field (IMO). Now that I think about it, wouldn't the added life from a bearing equipped can offset the cost difference in the long run of a limited use bushing can?
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Old 09-01-2002, 08:18 PM   #35
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My honest opinion: We are making stock into a "slow mod class," and increasing the race time will just make it worse. We keep bringing in better motors, better batteries, better tuning and so on. Stock is not supposed to be the class where your top racers race -- that's what mod is for.

At our track, we have guys spending wads and wads of money on STOCK racing. Guys that have been racing for a decade or longer. Guys who true their motors after every run and have a new set of tires every week. Guys who are essentially spending all this money to beat up on the little guys who are just learning or who can't afford competitive equipment.

Why won't they run mod, you ask? Because "mod is too expensive." And yet somehow, we've found a way to made competitive stock racing JUST as expensive.

I like the idea of stock racing being a low-key class. Making 6 minute races just gives one more advantage to guys who can spend money on better stuff. Sure, 3300 cells are out there, and you can *make* a motor last 6 minutes, but do we really need to? Should we force all of our racers to have 3000+ mAH cells? No way.

We have to keep this hobby accessible to new racers. Telling somebody that they have to spend $50 on a battery pack to compete under ROAR rules is NOT going to help promote the hobby. As a track administrator (soon owner, if all goes well) I love it when somebody new walks in the door and I can tell them all about our great hobby. I do whatever I can to spin R/C racing into being the most affordable, easy-access hobby on the planet. After all, that's how somebody got *me* into it. Getting new people is going to be that much harder when that $25 stick pack isn't going to last them a race.
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Old 09-01-2002, 10:41 PM   #36
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Well here, we have what you call "Spec" class. That's our cheap version of racing. Motors are cheap. Batteries are cheap. It's the best way to do Cheap racing. As for Stock, there will always be the "fast" guys at the track. And the average racer isn't gonna beable to compete against them. It'll always be like that. I guess these other fast people that spend big money on Stock class race it because it's easy to drive and setup a car for Stock. Switch to mod and it's a whole new ball game. More speed. More wear and tear. Needs more control. I can see how it can be more appealling than Mod. I race both so I can get the run time in that I pay for. I dunno some people just want to get in, race, and go home. Me, I just want to go out there and drive! I guess this is why I'm waiting for a good "mainstream" Brushless motor to come out so that I can just go out and race/practice all day long. Maybe I should just go out and drive my Micro.. hehe
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Old 09-01-2002, 11:26 PM   #37
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A lot of issues here. . .

One, money is always an issue. If you look across the board, you have guys buying new motors all the time, new matched 2400 packs or 3000 packes at the highest numbers every 6 months or less, shoot, just look at all the graphite out there. All to gain a little advantage and lose a little weight. If you have the money, you'll spend it. It's one reason that I have been racint Pro10 around here. . .much less that I need to spend. (not saying that you CAN'T spend as much on Pro10, just that I don't feel that I NEED to.)

Two, just as the 1/12th guys (and oval) know, you can make a motor run as long as you want with the proper gearing and brushes. It may mean a sacrifice in lap times and top speed, but it CAN be done.

Three, I haven't ever seen 1700's run for 5 minutes with any kind of competitiveness. Maybe for the first 2 minutes, but as high as we gear stock, they just don't have the capacity to go that long. Here at SoCal, I don't think that anyone running in the A or B main runs anything but 24's or 3000's except in practice. We've done comparisons between them, straight up, and without fail they just kick anything less.

Four, 19 turn - why is a 19 turn motor going to last longer than a 27 turn motor? They pull more power than a 27 turn, etc.

But, my two cents -

The average battery (2400, 3000) can make 5 minutes with time to spare, so let Rookie and Intermediate run that. It would take more thought and preparation to make 6 minutes competitively so let Sportsman (privateer) and Expert (sponsored) run 6 minutes.

As long as money can purchase cells that give an advantage, motors and lathes that can give an advantage, chargers that can give an advantage and car kits and parts that can give an advantage (given equal skill levels and setups of course. . .) then our sport will, generally, always be about how much spent.

I would LOVE to see a spec class take hold (other than 19 turn, thanx) that would have any kind of a chance to reverse this trend.

Just my two cents.
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Old 09-02-2002, 10:28 AM   #38
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I'm all for 6 min Stock races. When I started racing we used 1200's and ran for 4 minutes. Between then and now battery capacity has almost tripled and motor's and esc's have become more efficient but your not getting anymore bang for the buck. The reason stock racing is a money pit is because we only limit the motor size and not the size of the fuel tank (batteries). This hasn't changed between then and now and won't because Manufactures have convinced most of the people racing is about speed more then driving skill. Winning races should be about your skills in setting up your car and driving not in how much money you can throw at it. I think 6 min stock races with a 2400 max limit on batteries could keep the cost down and give some very good racing. I know this will never happen because this hobby is based on hype and bs and people find it easier to try to buy their way into winning then work for it.
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Old 09-02-2002, 11:44 AM   #39
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In all honesty I don't think you could get a 1700 pack to last a full 5 min. with a race tuned stocker. If you could ,it sure wouldn't be with an mvp. Another thing over looked is that 19t actually pull less amperage whan tuned properly, about 2-3 amps with no load. I can get almost 7.5 minutes when used in my f201.(19t/2000 pack). Keep in mind that the f201's are approx. .5 ounces heavier than current TC's,and have about as much drag as a xxxs. The 19t is a really great motor no matter who manufactures it. The nature of the wind itself lends to it's abiliy to put out great low to mid-range power,yet remain very efficient.
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Old 09-02-2002, 12:39 PM   #40
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I guess a few people already forgot what I posted earlier in this thread...we've ALREADY done 6 minute stock sedan at a local track, & it worked quite well, NO ONE was complaining about a lack of run time(though some people with 1700's would lose punch late in a run), & the wear on motors wasn't bad at all. If you'd asked about this 6 or 7 years ago, then I'd say yeah it's a bad idea, but with stocks & the VAST majority of drivers having 2000mah batteries & up, it really isn't a problem at all. The ONLY real downsider to it is that the night's racing does go longer(in other words, you'll get home noticably later than before), with so many people all running longer races. Kind of like if a given track has more 1/12 scale guys than any other class.....
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Old 09-02-2002, 06:54 PM   #41
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big dog- the statement is from someone else's profile.... Some ppl have to realize that carpet is our pool trable up here...so you better be ready when you come to our house, if you dont wanna get beat down. that's what the second part is all about
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Old 09-02-2002, 07:44 PM   #42
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Ahhhh.... I got ya' Rob- the first part is a quote from someone else, and the second part is sorta' your reply.

Well, did one of the northern racers get caught red-handed cheating, or is that just speculation?

I remember when I first started racing TC last year- I went to a regional event and the fast stock guy was smokin me so darn bad on the straight that I accused him of cheating (although I accused him under my breath...). The point is he was really fast, and he and I are good friends now, and KNOW he would NEVER cheat to win because he's like me. There is no honor OR fun in cheating. It would be like a date rape drug- if she didn't want you, then what's the fun of that???
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Old 09-02-2002, 09:00 PM   #43
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I'm still for 6 minutes. My point is that the "average" racer practices till his battery dumps anyways. So why not race for 6? I think the only ones to really suffer are the "fast" guys that like to run at the limit. Good goin Grizzbob! Some people just don't listen huh!

Anyhow, I ran my 1/12th today until my batteries dump. My motor was warm. Gearing was 100/25. Went up to 100/28 on gearing. Ran it til it was dumped. Motor was hot. I guess gearing can play a big role in motor heat huh? hehe... My point is we can really help the heat issue by gearing down. The fast guys that want to win will of course be willing to over heat a motor just to get that little extra speed.

So who hear would like to see bearings in Stock Motors?
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Old 09-02-2002, 09:08 PM   #44
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I would not mind bearings in my stock motor.....

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Old 09-03-2002, 12:33 AM   #45
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BigDog, it's just speculation, a big part of it is, guys come up here from those big flowing outdoor tracks and expect to lay the smack on guys that race on tight technical carpet tracks on foam all year round. For some guys it's a big change and don't catch up fast enough. If you notice, other than the pro's that come to the event (a lot of different winners there) but along the touring stock, 12scale classes and the such it's always the guys from Canada, Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin and Minnessota always at the top. Oooops, I left out Illinois
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