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Old 10-02-2013, 06:24 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by silden View Post
you misunderstood the roar rule.
It states that the chassis need to be designed that you can use a standard batterie.
This doesn't mean you can not configure it your self to accomiate a shorty lipo.
This rule is only made to prevent that a company invent a chassis is only useable with there special lipo. That's it nothing else.
BTW this rule came out as Losi brought us the 22 and the first shorty lipo.
From my point of view this rule is now worthless, because you can buy a shorty lipo from the most rc company's.
It has not been interpreted that way at some races. People have been forced to rearrange electronics because they had a speedo in the battery tray or such things. It has to be able to take a full size lipo AS RACED.
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Old 10-02-2013, 06:39 AM   #17
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The rule is actually preventing competition among manufacturers. Look at how all the new chassis are "clones" of one another. If a company want to take the risk and design a $300-$400 chassis that requires an additional purchase of $200-$300 worth of batteries thats their choice. Besides dont most people purchase new batteries around the one year mark anyway. Also VTA is getting to the point of buying special "VTA" batteries anyway. Its getting harder and harder to find anything non shorty that is under 5000mah. You can find them, but they are labeled VTA packs. Isnt that deaming it a specialty pack. It might be full size but... you be the judge. Point is I believe the rule limits competetion, not promote it.
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:07 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by theproffesor View Post
The rule is actually preventing competition among manufacturers. Look at how all the new chassis are "clones" of one another. If a company want to take the risk and design a $300-$400 chassis that requires an additional purchase of $200-$300 worth of batteries thats their choice. Besides dont most people purchase new batteries around the one year mark anyway. Also VTA is getting to the point of buying special "VTA" batteries anyway. Its getting harder and harder to find anything non shorty that is under 5000mah. You can find them, but they are labeled VTA packs. Isnt that deaming it a specialty pack. It might be full size but... you be the judge. Point is I believe the rule limits competetion, not promote it.
I don't think that is true at all. Looking around I can easily find multiple vendors with 5000mah packs that are not "VTA" marked. That some companies are selling them to me is a little silly as anything that is 5000mah and with a higher C rating could be labeled as VTA Packs. You really think some mfg's optimized their packs to work with a 25.5t motor?

I do think it would be nice to start seeing shorty pack mounting options in TC but since there is a trade off (capacity/ir) I don't know when we will see it. How much energy storage can we cram into a shorty pack where we wouldn't see a drop off like a long pack?
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:27 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by theproffesor View Post
The rule is actually preventing competition among manufacturers. Look at how all the new chassis are "clones" of one another. If a company want to take the risk and design a $300-$400 chassis that requires an additional purchase of $200-$300 worth of batteries thats their choice.
Why not meet in the middle ground, make 2 standard batteries under the ROAR rules, stick and shorty with a standard setup of dimensions for each. Chassis manufacturers can build cars for either or both and battery manufacturers can keep costs down by only building 1 or 2 sizes of batteries.
Drivers get the benefits of not getting stuck in a mono-culture of chassis and/or battery need to come from a specific mfg.
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:32 PM   #20
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wow, that may be a real rule but that to me is total horse crap. sure mandate a design that fits a full size industry standard battery, fair, but telling the user what he is and isnt allowed to put there is total horse crap lol....
The full size pack rule came about when Losi released the 22, and released a special shorty pack that was similar in size but slightly taller than the 1S packs 1/12th were running. At the time if you wanted to run the 22 mid motor you needed to run a battery only available from Losi. With the thought that manufacturers could end up making special L or Z shape packs to fit in buggies, ROAR decided to clamp down on it before it could happen. A sensible decision, considering you could end up updating your car and every time have to buy a whole new set of battery packs to fit in it. The rule is only there until battery manufacturers agree to standard pack sizes, at the moment all we have are maximum overall dimensions.

As for not allowing someone to put their electrics in there, well ROAR itself believes that's perfectly fine as they can be just pulled out. The "Chassis that require a configuration change, and/or a modification to fit a battery" is to prevent manufacturers creating chassis that can legally fit a full size battery, but doesn't after you've bolted the suspension, transmission and motor in place. http://www.liverc.com/news/special_features/1230EDITORIAL%3A_ROAR%27s_controversial_new_chassi s_rule/ It stops them creating shorty only chassis then including a spare full size battery tray in the box that hangs off the side of the chassis to make it 'legal'.

If a track isn't allowing you to stick your electrics in the battery area then they aren't interpreting the rules correctly.
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:39 PM   #21
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:36 PM   #22
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The rule is actually preventing competition among manufacturers. Look at how all the new chassis are "clones" of one another.
That's nothing to do with manufacturers being restricted to the size of the battery, most chassis look the same because that layout is what is the fastest design out there for the motors and batteries we are using today.

Go back 15-20 years and most belt drive chassis had the motor in the centre with the layshaft directly above it, usually with saddle pack batteries directly in front of the motor. That was what worked best with the slower motors and lower capacity batteries of the time. Today to run brushless mod touring you need a low centre of gravity and some chassis flex. You might run a much slower class, but the advantages that work in mod also work to a lesser extent in other classes but the difference is not as great, which is why older chassis can still be competitive in VTA.

There's also the fact that while buggy racers seem to be happy to try something new, touring car racers are a lot more conservative. Schumacher have always gone down their own route regarding chassis, just look at the Mi5 for innovation, but everyone want to keep buying "clone" chassis, which to me means the boring design must be working pretty well if everyone wants to stick with it.

ROAR is the only organisation with a rule regarding having to fit full size batteries. If this was 'preventing competition' and chassis designed around shorty packs were faster you would find companies making cars based around shorty packs and producing a separate chassis plate for the US market. While this is happening in buggies, look at the Team C TM02 for example, it's not something that's going to happen in touring cars.



Everyone running full size packs in touring cars while off roaders have been running shortys has nothing to do with any chassis rules, but entirely down to the classes raced. Run in mod touring and the lower average voltage and increased internal resistance of a shorty pack can be compensated for by running a hotter wind or more aggressive ESC settings. But everyone is running spec classes in touring, if you are restricted with what motor wind you can use and restricted to blinky on your ESC, the only way to get an extra advantage is in battery voltage and power, which means using the biggest capacity battery you can, which means a full size lipo.
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Old 10-02-2013, 01:42 PM   #23
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To be perfectly honest - NO manufacturer is paying attention to or designing a car with this very odd ROAR rule in mind. OK, perhaps one or two US-based ones, but the TC market in the States is tiny compared to Asia and Europe, where this rule doesn't exist.

Most continue to use full size lipo packs as that's what is needed to provide the best power for the duration of a 5 minute race. For sure, in the stock classes, you can run a shorty pack and have ample power, but a full size LiPo with more capacity will always have a longer discharge curve and therefore provide more power during the race. In off-road, power is limited by grip - drivers can always motor up if they need more power - in touring car that's not as possible!
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Old 10-02-2013, 03:51 PM   #24
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What for me kills the use is the weight rules in Europe. It makes no sense for me to have that in this hobby. What reason is there that a car has to weight 1350 gr?!
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Old 10-02-2013, 04:10 PM   #25
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When you limit power, you have to limit weight or its just a weight competition. I don't think there should be weight limits in Mod, just stock.
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Old 10-02-2013, 04:31 PM   #26
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What for me kills the use is the weight rules in Europe. It makes no sense for me to have that in this hobby. What reason is there that a car has to weight 1350 gr?!
It does not have to weigh 1350, mine weighs 1400, its just that you cannot go lighter then 1350, your car can be a big fat tub of lard if you like, there is nothing stopping you.
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Old 10-02-2013, 05:49 PM   #27
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With the power of mod motors today, 1350grams or lighter will only cause more wheelspin.... I ran my mod 3.5t at 1492grams and never spun a tire ever, while accelerating as fast as everybody else..... Too light is no good at all !!!
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Old 10-02-2013, 05:55 PM   #28
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What for me kills the use is the weight rules in Europe. It makes no sense for me to have that in this hobby. What reason is there that a car has to weight 1350 gr?!
I can understand a weight minimum in stock. But for mod it's silly.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:07 AM   #29
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It does not have to weigh 1350, mine weighs 1400, its just that you cannot go lighter then 1350, your car can be a big fat tub of lard if you like, there is nothing stopping you.
What I meant was: Why does a TC has to have a minimum weight of 1350gr. race ready?
In stock classes (I only race stock) you hardly have an advantage if your car is 50gr. lighter. What I don't like is that our TCs are unnessessary heavy meaning more heat and overall material damage. Shorty Lipos could be a first step to cut 100gr.. I once did a lightweight conversation for a TC5 and came out at 800gr.! The car performed like a 13.5t TC and got full power for 10 minutes with a 110gr. Lipo. I could use smaller and cheaper electronics
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:29 AM   #30
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What I meant was: Why does a TC has to have a minimum weight of 1350gr. race ready?
To create a level playing field for the 99% of drivers who have cars over this weight and who don't want to spend a load more money reducing the weight.
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