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Old 09-23-2013, 05:50 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
If one reason you are pushing this is to get Tamiya to make a scale 962 body for you, it just isn't going to happen. If you are waiting for a new LMP body from Tamiya then I would bet that if one does ever appear it will be the Toyota TS030 on the F1 chassis.

It's a minority racing class, so everyone will have to run the bodies that are already available, from RJ Speed, Colt, Mix or McAllister, or Protoform will just repull the Mulsanne and everyone will choose that. If a body manufacturer is going to make a body specifically for a racing class it will be more performance oriented every time, as that's how they sell them. I would think the most likely new bodies would be Gary McAllister making narrow versions of his Jaguar and Nissan.

Look at VTA. The HPI bodies aren't designed first and foremost for VTA, that's just a byproduct of them making scale bodies that appeal to on road bashers, and they made enough to satisfy the racing class as well. Now you have McAllister and Protoform making bodies for racing in the class with less detail, but the class had to grow pretty big and stick around for a few years before that happened.

With a touring car chassis in VTA you have 4wd, a lot more weight and a lot more tuning to get it to handle, and the relatively low speed means aero is not that important. Now look at WGT, being lightweight pan car chassis the body makes a lot of difference. The only way anyone is going to limit the class to good looking shells is to create a small list of bodies and stick to it, and come up with body rules that keep out the bodies you don't want.

If you just want to run a 1/10th 962 the best body available has to be the Chevron Dauer 962 which looks pretty good. If you want something more scale try and find somewhere that still has a Blade Racing BL962, but it was only produced in 2010. Or choose whichever body has the best looking front half, cut off the rear kickup and make your own rear deck from sheet lexan, after all the scale and drift fans have been modifying bodies to be more scale for years.





How about seeing what Speed Passion are going to come up with for their LM-F, although they will be running modern bodies it is likely to be exactly what you want. Scale looking LMP cars, albeit modern ones, with what is likely to be a unique size chassis so restricting what can run to the Speed Passion bodies. They are even planning a RTR version for spec racing.

There has been a similar class to this running in Eastern Europe for a few years. As they are supposed to be endurance cars, they run two qualifying sessions, then everyone runs in four 15 minute finals with your final result being the total number of laps in all finals added together. www.rc2wd.cz
Whew! What a read-no it's not about me getting Tamiya to make a 962 for me. It just so happens that in a class of realistic looking 1/10 GTP cars, I think the 962 was the most significant car and should be at the top of the list. Followed by the Nissan GTP for IMSA and the Jaguar XJR-8 for Group C. I really don't understand what guys like you have against what I'm asking for. "Well this is how it's always been done and how it'll probably be in the future, so forget it. Be happy with what's out there and get over it." It's almost like we have to be happy that some body manufacturer made something for us to race with, whether it's realistic or not and just be happy with it.

So thanks for your input, we'll make sure to put you in the "no" column. In the meantime maybe the discussion will go on-it's up to you guys now, I can't be the only one pushing for this or then it truly will be a very small minority. For those of you out there that agree with me, feel free to keep up the discussion, I'll watch from sidelines for now.

Last edited by Ed Delgado; 09-23-2013 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 09-23-2013, 06:34 PM   #62
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Hey Ed don't give up. Don't let peoples' opinions get to you. I really like what you are trying to do here.

Hang in there, Ed
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Old 09-23-2013, 07:32 PM   #63
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Hey Ed don't give up. Don't let peoples' opinions get to you. I really like what you are trying to do here.

Hang in there, Ed
Thanks.
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:42 AM   #64
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While I enjoy 12th scale immensely (having started there), we need to keep in mind the many advantages of 1/10th scale pan cars, most of which have already been stated in this thread:

Their size makes them better suited to typical bumpy parking lot tracks.

They easily accept larger radio equipment.

They are easier to drive for new and "vintage" drivers.

There are plenty of chassis available used at reasonable prices.

There is a good selection of new chassis.

Bigger cars have more appeal to the general public.
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Last edited by howardcano; 09-24-2013 at 04:12 AM.
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:50 AM   #65
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Default WGTP Tentative Rules

WGTP Rules:

Pan car chassis using live rear axle and front suspension with at least one fixed arm. No front dampers allowed.

Width 205mm maximum.

Wheelbase 229mm minimum, 282mm maximum.

Minimum ride height 4mm.

Tires: Any compound foam tires, 2.25" minimum diameter.

Roar-approved 17.5 motors and 1s LiPo cells.

Minimum weight 38oz.

ROAR-approved zero timing ESCs.

GTP/LMP/Group C-style bodies with reasonably realistic appearance:
RJ Speed Porsche 962 (#RJS 1052) (width F/R 202mm/205mm) Between 30mm and 50mm of chord of the rear kickup must be cut off and mounted as a wing between, and no higher than, the tail fins, and at least 5mm above the main body.
McCallister #289 Corvette Daytona Prototype (width F/R 193mm/202mm)
Protoform Mulsanne (width F/R 195mm/200mm)
Colt CLK GTR
Colt TOYOTA GT1
Colt 911 GT1
Colt PORSCHE 962
Chevron Dauer GT1-LM
Chevron Toyota GT-One
Speed Passion LM1 (width F/R 200mm/205mm)
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Last edited by howardcano; 10-06-2013 at 07:23 AM. Reason: Reinstated RJ Speed 962 with wing specs. Added Speed Passion LM1. Changed wheelbase specs from inches to mm.
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Old 09-24-2013, 08:38 AM   #66
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So thanks for your input, we'll make sure to put you in the "no" column. In the meantime maybe the discussion will go on-it's up to you guys now, I can't be the only one pushing for this or then it truly will be a very small minority. For those of you out there that agree with me, feel free to keep up the discussion, I'll watch from sidelines for now.
Well you've missed my point. I'm already running the class and have been for years, using an old RC10L3T 200mm pan car as it is already one of my favourites.

Over the years I have run with the Protoform GT1, Tamiya Toyota TS020 and Blade Racing XJR14and 962 bodies and they all looked pretty good. I run it at my club because I enjoy running it, but no one elsewhere has any interest in it. I race indoors on carpet in with the touring cars, so I run 2S/13.5T with Pink tyres all round, the better aero of even the more scale LMP bodies means the chassis is easy and fun to drive.

Ed, if you want to run the class just get out there with what's already available and create some interest from fellow racers. Pointing out the bodies aren't scale enough for you isn't helping and suggesting "We need a body company to make a scale version of a GTP car to get the ball rolling" isn't going to get the class going. Thinking the way to create it is first to get a manufacturer to create a body for a non existent r/c class based on a full size race series that disappeared 20 years ago, when there are many alternative shells around just isn't going to help. If you aren't interested unless it's a GTP body that's accurately in scale then yes, you will be in a small minority. Just order a Chevron Dauer 962 from Banzai Hobby, or see if they can source a Blade 962, make up some headlight pods, stick it on a WGT chassis and go have some fun. If the class takes off then you might see some interest in new bodies, but it won't happen unless the manufacturers see there's a market for a body.

As soon as Speed Passion releases their modern LMP bodies, complete with scale lighting, the scale fans will be wanting to run those. The more serious racers will want to run the RJ Speed 962 or Mulsanne, even though with limited power the body will make real difference to performance. Not allowing either of those because groups because the bodies don't fit into what you envisage isn't going to encourage others to join you.

With limited power you won't have a track full of modern wedges, if anything the high rear kick up might give more drag than something more scale. More likely the Mulsanne will be favourite if Protoform makes some more but they still look great with a scale paint scheme. If the class takes off then look at setting rules, for example a maximum rear body height so wedge bodies would only be legal if you cut out the rear kick up, or insisting a separate rear wing is used.



The first thing to do is to just get people out there running them, then see where the class goes. There has got to be plenty of WGT chassis as well as older pan cars gathering dust and maybe the way to encourage people to dig them out is to try something different. I also pointed out there has been a similar class running for years in Eastern Europe, useful for some ideas. In the same way part of the appeal of UF1 is the 15 minute races with pit stops, I think the way the Moravian Le Mans series runs with adding up the laps scored in four 15 minute races to give a total 1 hour endurance race is an idea to think about as it is a different enough race format to get others interested who would otherwise think it was just WGT with different bodies.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:02 AM   #67
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Hey Mr. Trucker.....don't you dare bail on me after getting me all hyped up about this concept.
It appears quite a few people LIKE the GTP cars. It's just a matter of hashing out the right approach.
Took a look at Bonzai Hobbies. That Dauer bod is nice.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:14 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
While I enjoy 12th scale immensely (having started there), we need to keep in mind the many advantages of 1/10th scale pan cars, most of which have already been stated in this thread:

Their size makes them better suited to typical bumpy parking lot tracks.

They easily accept larger radio equipment.

They are easier to drive for new and "vintage" drivers.

There are plenty of chassis available used at reasonable prices.

There is a good selection of new chassis.

Bigger cars have more appeal to the general public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
Let's throw some more WGTP rule stuff on the wall to see what sticks:

Pan car chassis using live rear axle and front suspension with at least one fixed arm. No front dampers allowed.

Width 235mm maximum, no minimum.

Wheelbase 9" minimum, 11" maximum.

Minimum ride height 4mm.

Motor/battery/weight: 25.5/2s LiPo/42 oz minimum, or 13.5/1s LiPo/37 oz minimum. (These weights are intentionally high to encourage use of older cars and electronics. These combinations give nearly identical power-to-weight ratios, and allow participants to use what they already have or prefer. They also reflect real endurance racing, which embraces a variety of powertrains.)

Zero timing ESCs.

GTP/LMP/Group C-style bodies with reasonably realistic appearance; will need to create a list of approved bodies. Candidates include:
McCallister #123 Jaguar GTP
McCallister #133 Toyota GTP
McCallister #146 Nissan NPT90 GTP
McCallister #289 Corvette Daytona Prototype
Protoform Mulsanne
Protoform P905B
RJ Speed Porsche 962 (#RJS 1052)

Spec tires or open? WGT fronts, pink or open rears?; should there be a minimum diameter requirement (2.25"?) for realism?
This Man is thinking !!
Howard.. I like it.
The more I think about tires the more I believe that an open tire rule is best. I've just seen and heard to many situations where a race sucked because the spec tire just made tuning a nightmare. Make the National ruleset "open tire" but leave it up to local race directors discretion. And yes, I like the tire diameter minimum.
Bodies:
Colt
Chevron
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:41 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
Well you've missed my point. I'm already running the class and have been for years, using an old RC10L3T 200mm pan car as it is already one of my favourites.

Over the years I have run with the Protoform GT1, Tamiya Toyota TS020 and Blade Racing XJR14and 962 bodies and they all looked pretty good. I run it at my club because I enjoy running it, but no one elsewhere has any interest in it. I race indoors on carpet in with the touring cars, so I run 2S/13.5T with Pink tyres all round, the better aero of even the more scale LMP bodies means the chassis is easy and fun to drive.

Ed, if you want to run the class just get out there with what's already available and create some interest from fellow racers. Pointing out the bodies aren't scale enough for you isn't helping and suggesting "We need a body company to make a scale version of a GTP car to get the ball rolling" isn't going to get the class going. Thinking the way to create it is first to get a manufacturer to create a body for a non existent r/c class based on a full size race series that disappeared 20 years ago, when there are many alternative shells around just isn't going to help. If you aren't interested unless it's a GTP body that's accurately in scale then yes, you will be in a small minority. Just order a Chevron Dauer 962 from Banzai Hobby, or see if they can source a Blade 962, make up some headlight pods, stick it on a WGT chassis and go have some fun. If the class takes off then you might see some interest in new bodies, but it won't happen unless the manufacturers see there's a market for a body.

As soon as Speed Passion releases their modern LMP bodies, complete with scale lighting, the scale fans will be wanting to run those. The more serious racers will want to run the RJ Speed 962 or Mulsanne, even though with limited power the body will make real difference to performance. Not allowing either of those because groups because the bodies don't fit into what you envisage isn't going to encourage others to join you.

With limited power you won't have a track full of modern wedges, if anything the high rear kick up might give more drag than something more scale. More likely the Mulsanne will be favourite if Protoform makes some more but they still look great with a scale paint scheme. If the class takes off then look at setting rules, for example a maximum rear body height so wedge bodies would only be legal if you cut out the rear kick up, or insisting a separate rear wing is used.



The first thing to do is to just get people out there running them, then see where the class goes. There has got to be plenty of WGT chassis as well as older pan cars gathering dust and maybe the way to encourage people to dig them out is to try something different. I also pointed out there has been a similar class running for years in Eastern Europe, useful for some ideas. In the same way part of the appeal of UF1 is the 15 minute races with pit stops, I think the way the Moravian Le Mans series runs with adding up the laps scored in four 15 minute races to give a total 1 hour endurance race is an idea to think about as it is a different enough race format to get others interested who would otherwise think it was just WGT with different bodies.
Well I'll mad it that my personal feelings regarding the 962 might have come through in the discussion. This probably comes from over thirty years in the hobby and never having seen a properly done (scale-wise) 962. I'm talking about the scale quality of Tamiya's 1/10 GTP cars. And Tamiya's 1/10 cars is what got me thinking about this concept of WGTP. The problem with Tamiya and their 1/10 cars is that they go out of production so quickly that their owners dare not race their cars for fear of not being able to replace them. I also saw the RM-01 revitalize interest in 1/12 and wondered if a 1/10 version of the RM-01 might do the same for 1/10. "Wouldn't it be awesome if they bodied it with a 962!" I thought. I imagined clubs around the country with 6,7 or 8 tamiya 962s racing against other GTP bodied WGT chassis. I understand that other people don't care for scale realism as much as I do- that's fine, what can I do?
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:39 PM   #70
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If the class takes off then look at setting rules, for example a maximum rear body height so wedge bodies would only be legal if you cut out the rear kick up, or insisting a separate rear wing is used.
bodies.
You mean like this?:



Instead of this?:

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Old 09-24-2013, 02:45 PM   #71
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This Man is thinking !!
Howard.. I like it.
The more I think about tires the more I believe that an open tire rule is best. I've just seen and heard to many situations where a race sucked because the spec tire just made tuning a nightmare. Make the National ruleset "open tire" but leave it up to local race directors discretion. And yes, I like the tire diameter minimum.
Bodies:
Colt
Chevron
I modified my previous post to include open tires with a minimum diameter.

Can you provide info or links to the Colt and Chevron bodies that you have in mind?
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:22 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
You mean like this?:



Instead of this?:

If that's the RJSpeed 200mm Porsche sitting on a WGT chassis, then I'm thinking it's the old Bolink 235mm body. Looks really wide. Howardcano, is this your car? If so can you please measure the body width at the front and rear wheels? Thanks, Ed
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:27 PM   #73
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You can't regulate a minimum tire rule. It does not allow anyone to get the maximum about of run tire on their tires.that is a really silly rule.
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:42 PM   #74
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You mean like this?:
...
Instead of this?:
...
If someone suggested just hacking off the kick up and mounting it higher up as a wing, there is no way I would have thought it would look as good as that. Personally I would still prefer a decent size wing, but that looks a lot better than the original body.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:05 PM   #75
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I modified my previous post to include open tires with a minimum diameter.

Can you provide info or links to the Colt and Chevron bodies that you have in mind?
Chevron Dauer 962 and mounted on a WGT chassis looks like this. More views on Chevrons website
Chevron Toyota GT1 but looks like it's made 190mm wide for Tamiya F1s


Colt bodies are based in Taiwan. Not as detailed as the Chevron bodies. They can be found at RCMart
Porsche 911 GT1
Toyota GT1
Porsche 962
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