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Old 09-22-2013, 10:39 AM   #31
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I am a fan of following the lead of the VTA rules, in that it would allow WGT (200mm pan) or Pro 10 (235mm pan) chassis to run together. Maybe have a somewhat porky minimum weight (like VTA and USGT) and 25.5 or 21.5 motors. If a spec tire (or maybe two compounds for each, front and rear) would work, that might be an idea as well. In order to reduce costs, I believe 2s would be better as many ESCs won't do 1s.
I specifically don't mention F1 chassis as we haven't found a good way to put pan car tires on them. The consensus seems to be that foams are better. It would be nice to follow something like WGT rules so as to not have to reinvent the wheel (no pun intended).
Just my $0.02 worth.
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:14 AM   #32
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Hey Ed.....I think this thing is coming together !!
NutDriver, well done.
So far:
WGTP
200 or 235 mm electric wgt style chassis (single center shock)
GTP,LMP type bodies.


Can we discuss power and tire options ?

My thought is any NATURAL RUBBER compound available. Both rears must be the same and both fronts must be the same.
Tire compounds are a valid tuning option. In many cases it's also a matter of feasability. Different track surfaces demand different tire choices. For example: the wear with a WGT Lilac tire may be much more significant than with 30 shore Pinks.

As for power, I'm of the opinion that there simply aren't enough tracks that can really pull off running at typical Pro10 speeds ie: 10.5t/2s.
This class shouldn't be all about speed since we've spent the better part of the thread talking about SCALE looks.
1s works BUT I agree that it's much more difficult to work with. 2s is widely available, esc choice is a breeze, proper balance chargers are almost the norm.
I'm a bit torn. 25.5/2s offers plenty of speed with a direct drive chassis,some commonality with a fast growing mainstream class (VTA) and readily available products. If we ever wanted to allow more speed, just change the esc rule to allow open speedo and off we go. (That could be left to track/club directors as a local rule)
Here's where I'm torn My novice class is using brushed Tamiya can motors and 2s lipo. In order to get the speeds down so the wgt tires can grip we had to limit the gearing to a 81 spur/17 pinion. Some say the Tamiya can (27t) is about the same as a 21.5bl. If that's the case then we could go 21.5, blinky speedo and allow local directors to apply a gear restriction if they choose or leave gearing open.
Thoughts ?
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by rctrackman View Post
Hey Ed.....I think this thing is coming together !!
NutDriver, well done.
So far:
WGTP
200 or 235 mm electric wgt style chassis (single center shock)
GTP,LMP type bodies.


Can we discuss power and tire options ?

My thought is any NATURAL RUBBER compound available. Both rears must be the same and both fronts must be the same.
Tire compounds are a valid tuning option. In many cases it's also a matter of feasability. Different track surfaces demand different tire choices. For example: the wear with a WGT Lilac tire may be much more significant than with 30 shore Pinks.

As for power, I'm of the opinion that there simply aren't enough tracks that can really pull off running at typical Pro10 speeds ie: 10.5t/2s.
This class shouldn't be all about speed since we've spent the better part of the thread talking about SCALE looks.
1s works BUT I agree that it's much more difficult to work with. 2s is widely available, esc choice is a breeze, proper balance chargers are almost the norm.
I'm a bit torn. 25.5/2s offers plenty of speed with a direct drive chassis,some commonality with a fast growing mainstream class (VTA) and readily available products. If we ever wanted to allow more speed, just change the esc rule to allow open speedo and off we go. (That could be left to track/club directors as a local rule)
Here's where I'm torn My novice class is using brushed Tamiya can motors and 2s lipo. In order to get the speeds down so the wgt tires can grip we had to limit the gearing to a 81 spur/17 pinion. Some say the Tamiya can (27t) is about the same as a 21.5bl. If that's the case then we could go 21.5, blinky speedo and allow local directors to apply a gear restriction if they choose or leave gearing open.
Thoughts ?
I don't know much about lipo and brushless as that came out while I was racing 1/8 on road nitro. I think that keeping costs and speeds reasonable is a good idea. As far as operating costs go, the biggest and most frequent expense is tires. Here is where we need input from guys that race WGT with spec tires on asphalt (where I imagine the majority of club racing will be done). Also, I think it would be a pain to police different compounds on l & r sides of cars-besides, I think that is something done on oval. I know current WGT cars run with 1s batteries: can they accept a 2s battery? I thought 2s batteries were a different shape: longer and narrower? As far a limiting gearing goes, that would be up to individual race directors, however I would not want to see it in the Open class-besides, the length of the back straight will be the limiting factor here.

Maybe the answer to cost cutting is to create an entry level class and leave open the regular class-at least to a certain degree. You could have WGTP Sportsman and WGTP Open. The only limitations on the Open class would be motor limit, 2s batteries, blinky or no blinky, and minimum weight for example. Sportsman would have further restrictions on prices for tires, car kits, and sc/motor combos. I am a firm believer in this Sportsman concept as you need to give newcomers a way to take part in the hobby. Others with experience will also take part in the class either because they like the challenge of getting the most performance out of a limited car or just because they are on a budget (like children who race with their parents or are sponsored by their parents).
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Old 09-22-2013, 01:57 PM   #34
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Went on a buying spree lately so I've looked at all the most common WGT cars. CRC,Corally, Serpent, Xray,BMI,and Kawada all have Lipo capability (full size or "shorty" packs. Speedmerchant is a bit of a mystery.

Onroad drivers wouldn't typically have different compounds on each side of the car. As you said, that's an Oval racing thing.

What does everyone think about creating a entry level class... GTP style ??

It could be interesting. As I've mentioned, our club is already planning something like this. The goal is to get people in as inexpensively as possible; the primary effort being track time, the secondary being to START learning the basics of car mechanics. Our class uses the $100 RJ Speed 3.2 chassis, 2 cell Lipo hardcase packs (standard or shorty), Tamiya teu105bk or HPI sc-15wp esc (about 40 bucks and both have Lipo cutoff) WGT tires/wheels, and a GTP body ( I might make the RJ Speed Porsche the standard ), and a gearing restriction of 81t spur/17t pinion.
There's a possibility that a better,low budget,good quality, slightly better equipped car may be available but I'm still getting details. Speedmerchant makes the "Speedspec" cars. About $160 bucks but quite superior to the RJ Speed. I just haven't found out whether it's lipo capable or not. I'm also aware of a oval manufacturer interested in building a new WGT style car that would fit the need perfectly. Just a matter of time.
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Old 09-22-2013, 02:00 PM   #35
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I have nothing technical to add here, however i would totally race this class as I'm in love with imsa cars! Im all for this!
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Old 09-22-2013, 02:05 PM   #36
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Welcome SupaMan ! Do you have a track near you ??
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Old 09-22-2013, 03:15 PM   #37
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RCTrackman,
I like the idea of a spec chassis, but I was leaning more towards minimum initial expenditure to get in. Maybe I am thinking about what should be the "open" class and maybe the "entry" class should have the spec chassis.
I recently bought a SpeedPassion blinky ESC and a ROAR-legal 21.5 motor for less than $100. Not bad for cost-containment. :-)
I'm going to look more for the SpeedMerchant stuff.
@Ed, LiPOs come in so many shapes, sizes, capacities. They aren't (exactly) like sub-C NiCds. I think that most WGT cars are capable of handling 2s LiPOs.
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Old 09-22-2013, 03:45 PM   #38
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NutDriver, no worries. I think we're actually on the same track.

It appears there might be some interest in a "entry level" beginner class. That's what I was describing with my club's RJ Speed class. Pure,low budget, least complex , lower performance class.

Originally I think we were all talking about a GTP class that was a reasonable step down from pro10. Not necessarily a "entry level to rc class". This higher level class COULD be entered by a completely new driver if they elected to but it would mostly appeal to people with some level of experience since the cost to get in would be higher than the more basic class I described. This would be a cost conscious, reasonable performance GTP oriented class (basically the same theory as VTA) designed to re-establish GTP styled cars on the rc racing circuit. WGT style chassis, 21.5 or 25.5, 2 cell, Foam tires, GTP bodies.
A spec chassis for this might work but I think most people would like to choose a manufacturer. Honestly, in the current crop of WGT chassis I don't see a lot of difference in design.
If a spec chassis were to be considered, my suggestion would be the CRC GENX. American made, easy availability, expandable to 235mm. Heck, maybe we can get Frank Calandra to make a composite chassis available to lower the cost a bit.

I still like your earlier thought combining 200mm and 235mm in this class. Ultimately I could see most people changing their cars to 235mm or simply buying 235mm cars IF they see any reasonable increase in performance with the 235mm chassis.
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Old 09-22-2013, 05:17 PM   #39
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I have a CRC WGT car and a 235mm conversion for it. Kinda like it. Could run 235mm for some tracks, 200mm for others.
Does RJ Speed sell the 4 cell NiCds and Legends Spec motors? If a package of car, body, motor, and battery could be put together.........
When I was racing Legends cars about 10 years ago, we ran on a carpet oval for 8 minutes. You had to be careful with your throttle or you'd be out of juice by the end. It was entertaining to wait for the lap counter to announce "one minute left" and see who had been sandbagging and who was getting passed.
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Old 09-22-2013, 05:54 PM   #40
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Here's an idea for the "beginner" class, if that's what we want to call it (and this idea can be applied to all types of cars, not just WGTP!): Keep everything between the two classes identical, but run the beginner class as Breakout. Choose a Breakout time of maybe 120% of the typical lap time for the normal class. Beginners won't be breaking as many parts or chunking as many tires, and won't need decent batteries. But everything they use will be legal for when they want to advance to the "fast" class (which is always a problem with single-make classes).

I'll be the first to admit that Breakout isn't for everybody, but beginners seem to really go for the concept. The BRL will be running a Breakout class this season to encourage dads to bring their kids to the races, and I think it's a good idea. What better way to get a kid involved with RC racing than with a simple, rugged, "detuned" pan car?

End of commercial, now we return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Old 09-22-2013, 06:00 PM   #41
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Oh, and since we have now mentioned VTA as a possible template to follow, maybe we should call this new class VTP!
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Old 09-22-2013, 06:09 PM   #42
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Oh, and since we have now mentioned VTA as a possible template to follow, maybe we should call this new class VTP!
Dude. REALLY ?! WGTP sounds so right. Like a radio station made just to bring us the sweet sounds of race cars.
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Old 09-22-2013, 06:13 PM   #43
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Dude. REALLY ?! WGTP sounds so right. Like a radio station made just to bring us the sweet sounds of race cars.
And the winner is... WGTP!!!
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Old 09-22-2013, 06:23 PM   #44
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No RJSpeed does not sell a 4 cell battery or motor. In fact nobody sells a 4 cellpack. As for you guys trying to reinvent the WGT class to include the 200mm running agqinst the 235 that is crazy. The 235 will handle much better- been there and done that.The standard 1 cell 200mm with all the esc out there that will had a 1 cell lipo is easy to find. a booster is simple to install if needed. As for tires the GQ spec WGT wear very well and work fine but on road and oval. Limiting chassis, gear ratio's and tires is not the answer. Any hobby is expensive if you want it to be.You can race on a budget-I do.
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Old 09-22-2013, 06:24 PM   #45
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I have a CRC WGT car and a 235mm conversion for it. Kinda like it. Could run 235mm for some tracks, 200mm for others.
Does RJ Speed sell the 4 cell NiCds and Legends Spec motors? If a package of car, body, motor, and battery could be put together.........
When I was racing Legends cars about 10 years ago, we ran on a carpet oval for 8 minutes. You had to be careful with your throttle or you'd be out of juice by the end. It was entertaining to wait for the lap counter to announce "one minute left" and see who had been sandbagging and who was getting passed.
The 4 cell packs and spec motors are tough to get. For my club we chose Lipo simply cause it's most widely used and available. The Tamiya can motor is easy to get and cheap. Good 2s packs can be bought for under 40 bucks and can motors are 15-20 bucks. Spektrum has mini metal gear servos for 27 bucks. The esc's are about $40. The package we're using is about as inexpensive as they get without buying truly disposable gear. Just as important is that the battery and servo can be carried through to the next level.
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