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Old 10-04-2013, 04:44 AM   #136
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Bob Stormer asked Mike Reedy once why Pro10 was dying and Mike related a story about a pro10 race where turn marshals actually had to have shields to protect them from the cars that went off track.
True story. Mostly Mike was about how few drivers (even on a world stage) could effectively control them at the speeds they had gotten to.
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Old 10-04-2013, 05:05 AM   #137
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I'm curious....what drives the continued production of 235mm bodies?? Am I wrong that Pro10 is a very,very small class worldwide?
Pro 10 is a very small class worldwide, but there has never been an official 200mm pan car class. There are small pockets of racers running Pro10 around the world, Germany and the Netherlands being the only places I know of with enough racers to organise a championship.

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BTW, BOb Stormer might be a REALLY good guy to make contact with, especially if we go 235mm. He's got massive experience, loves pancars AND he obviously has contacts in the business. Notice they had those Osella bodies made even after being discontinued for some time. Now that's pull !
Parma will pull any body that they still have moulds for, just like McAllister and Frewer, even Protoform will if you want enough of them. All you have to do is buy enough bodies to make it worth their while to cover the setup costs as the vac forming machines aren't earning money when they change moulds. I have bought old bodies from Frewer, had to put in a minimum order of 20 of them and pay for them before they were produced. If they are busy you will find it hard to get any done as their main bodies get priority but if you can pay them up front and are prepared to wait you can egt any body repulled.
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Old 10-04-2013, 05:08 AM   #138
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WGT-P chassis rules:
A. Any WGT chassis with 235mm conversion or Any 235mm factory available chassis of any vintage.
There should be no need to specify that the chassis must be 235mm wide. WGT had a surge and has died off in a lot of places so there are a lot of racers with old WGT chassis that are looking for a race. Telling those drivers they will have to convert their cars to 235mm isn't going to encourage them to join in, especially as almost all of them don't have an official wide conversion. If the rule is a maximum width then it allows 200mm WGTs, and even F1 chassis as well, with just a body change. Then wait and see what width becomes popular.

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D. Any ROAR legal 2s hardcase battery.
E. Any ROAR legal 21.5 brushless motor (or 25.5. testing can be done before we settle)
F. Any ROAR legal ESC with 0 timing or progammable in "blinky" mode.
When we created our new GT12 class the rules were written to encourage touring car racers a well, so we had rules for both 1S/13.5T and 2S/21.5T. Some clubs run 2S/21.5T but after a couple of years almost all clubs run 1S only, and the nationals are again 1S only. 1S handled better through the corners, but 2S had more speed down the straights. The performance difference can be evened out by adjusting minimum weights between the two. Limiting it to 2S again means you are stopping the use of some WGT chassis, and WGT racers will already have a 1S battery and ESC.
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Old 10-04-2013, 08:50 AM   #139
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I was on Ebay last night looking for used 235mm cars and I kept running into old t-bar cars. To me, this means 2s to race them. However, as Terry said, there are many WGT cars out there (and CRC released a new one very recently) that can easily run 1s. What this makes me wonder is if 235mm should be 2s and 200mm 1s? It makes sense in regard to the handling characteristics of each chassis.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:05 AM   #140
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I was on Ebay last night looking for used 235mm cars and I kept running into old t-bar cars. To me, this means 2s to race them. However, as Terry said, there are many WGT cars out there (and CRC released a new one very recently) that can easily run 1s. What this makes me wonder is if 235mm should be 2s and 200mm 1s? It makes sense in regard to the handling characteristics of each chassis.
235mm T-plate cars work great on 1s, too. That's what we race here. The LiPo goes on one side of the car, electronics on the other side. If the LiPo is heavier than the electronics, then put it on the side opposite the motor weight (on a 235mm car the motor weight is usually toward the right side).

As I posted in my suggested rules, we can race 1s and 2s combos against each other (with different motors and weights to equalize performance), but there is no reason to restrict which combo is used where.

Many WGT cars can use a shorty 2s LiPo, if that's what the driver prefers, with very little modification.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:13 AM   #141
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Hey fellas, This is Ed's concept and he has a particular set of ideas he wants to pursue. I was just making my own proposals. In fact, i was going to post that 235mm and 200mm both be allowed based on Howard's well thought out suggestions.
I still think 2s is a better bet but again, I also understand 1s is the current standard for WGT and there's some valid argument for using them. Availability was my reasoning for suggesting 2s. I can honestly say that in my area not 1 hobbyshop sells 1s regularly. Some Oval specific shops like Oval Stuff sell them though. In other words....you have to know where to go. That's just another difficulty for a newbie.
The simple reasoning for the 235mm suggestion was based on decent body availability. There seems to be more quality bodies available in 235mm even though the market seems to be small. Apparently it's small but loyal.
A minor thought was that 235mm and it's additional stability would give any AVERAGE driver the feeling they could push the car harder. That's worth alot. I call it Go-Kart effect. The first time i raced a go kart I just had the feeling i was going much faster and that I had control.
As i said, 235mm cars aren't going to be found everywhere. Almost every wgt car has an available conversion kit or is available ( at least Corally) as a kit 235mm car.
Bottom line, Ed wants to pursue 200mm and has good reasons for doing so. He also wants standard wgt electronics.
I'd take that and run with it. If you're lucky,Speed Passion will have success with their new car and make a bunch more LM bodies. From what has been posted,they're 200mm.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:43 AM   #142
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Ed wants to pursue 200mm and has good reasons for doing so. He also wants standard wgt electronics.
I'd take that and run with it. If you're lucky,Speed Passion will have success with their new car and make a bunch more LM bodies. From what has been posted,they're 200mm.
That works for me.

It sounds like Ed wants to keep things more realistic, which is definitely a breath of fresh air compared to most of the cars currently raced. As he stated, 200mm is more to scale than 235mm.

Let's see what everybody else thinks. In the end, though, it may simply be more effective for Ed to make the final decision. Having just one person making decisions is a very expedient way of achieving progress.

If we do decide to go 1s only, then are we leaning toward cars that are easier to drive (17.5), or go faster (13.5 or 10.5)? Of course, big tracks can always choose something hotter than the spec.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:11 PM   #143
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FOR ME (and just my $0.02 worth), I would like to see a move towards cars that are easier to drive, whether that is 1s/17.5 or whatever.
If the ultimate decision is for 2s, I would like to see 21.5 or 25.5. As I am a big fan of the structure, rules, and connections that USVTA have, I would like to put forth the idea of using the VTA motor(s) and ESC rules (if 2s is the decision).

Ed Delgado,
I would like to request an executive decision on a number of things:
1. 200mm, 235mm, or both?
2. 1s, 2s, or two classes?
3. Open on foams, or WGT spec (or other)?
4. Can we start a list of approved bodies?
5. Blinky ESC rules only?

Thanks,
Scott
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:24 PM   #144
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Some of my bodies I used and abused

Protoform Peugeot MD in BMW V12 LMR colors



Protoform Peugeot HD


Andy sauber mercedes: is a Mercedes C11 and I made it in a Mercedes C9 michelin colors (made a mistake with the lightbuckets )


Real Mercedes Michelin (a model) but as far as I know it wasn't actually raced.

As a comparison real Mercedes C11 where the andy sauber is copied from, notice the low cockpit and nose in front of the cockpit. Windscreen wiper is even copied on the andy sauber mercedes.


Nissan P35 in some hotchpotch Lancia Martini colors. With blank backwing.



Some other pictures I found












If you see them as modelkits then no they are not scale but overall I think the 235mm bodies all look good when painted up like a race car and driving them on the circuit but that is only my opinion ofcourse . I only hear praises when they see the bodies I painted up, even from people that drive other classes. Most color schemes are quite simple with maximum 2 colors and some stickers from tamiya, HPI or DIY printing.

Good luck with the class whatever the direction will be.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:47 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by NutDriver View Post
FOR ME (and just my $0.02 worth), I would like to see a move towards cars that are easier to drive, whether that is 1s/17.5 or whatever.
If the ultimate decision is for 2s, I would like to see 21.5 or 25.5.
I'd also prefer 17.5/1s.

25.5/2s will be very close to the same power/weight as 13.5/1s, and as we've already shown, 13.5/1s WGT is faster than 17.5/2s TC. That's pretty quick!

From what I've seen, the faster the car, the wider the gap from first to last place. I'll give up speed for tighter competition any day.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:42 PM   #146
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2wdrive,
Some other Road Atlanta corner workers and I were looking at videos of the BMW V12 LMR spinning and beaching itself while leading on last 389 or 390 of 394 in the 1999 Petit LeMans race. While I'm happy that Panoz won that race, I was heartbroken for BMW and, most especially, the driver (was it Jorg Mueller? I had to watch the video with the audio off).
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Old 10-04-2013, 05:11 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by NutDriver View Post
FOR ME (and just my $0.02 worth), I would like to see a move towards cars that are easier to drive, whether that is 1s/17.5 or whatever.
If the ultimate decision is for 2s, I would like to see 21.5 or 25.5. As I am a big fan of the structure, rules, and connections that USVTA have, I would like to put forth the idea of using the VTA motor(s) and ESC rules (if 2s is the decision).

Ed Delgado,
I would like to request an executive decision on a number of things:
1. 200mm, 235mm, or both?
2. 1s, 2s, or two classes?
3. Open on foams, or WGT spec (or other)?
4. Can we start a list of approved bodies?
5. Blinky ESC rules only?

Thanks,
Scott
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:21 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NutDriver View Post
FOR ME (and just my $0.02 worth), I would like to see a move towards cars that are easier to drive, whether that is 1s/17.5 or whatever.
If the ultimate decision is for 2s, I would like to see 21.5 or 25.5. As I am a big fan of the structure, rules, and connections that USVTA have, I would like to put forth the idea of using the VTA motor(s) and ESC rules (if 2s is the decision).

Ed Delgado,
I would like to request an executive decision on a number of things:
1. 200mm, 235mm, or both?
2. 1s, 2s, or two classes?
3. Open on foams, or WGT spec (or other)?
4. Can we start a list of approved bodies?
5. Blinky ESC rules only?

Thanks,
Scott
I thank you all for your comments and your faith in my decision making ability. I am not a dictator or king, and even though I started this discussion of the concept of a realistic and scale 1/10 GTP class it's not about me. If there is no greater interest in this than just a few guys on the internet, well then that's all it will be.

I raced 1/10 pan cars for many years, from the eighties on into the mid-nineties. I loved the class and enjoyed racing it very much. I'm also glad that there is some of it still around. I think 235mm pan cars will come back into popularity because they are fast, fun to race and the cars are more simple than 4wd TC cars. But what I'm talking about for WGTP is different in that it's more about scale looking car (like comparing USGT to WGT) and although many 235mm bodies are nicely made, and beautifully presented, they are not realistic-at least not in my eyes. The problem is that besides Tamiya, there are practically no scale GTP bodies on the market. So there can't really be a class like I'm proposing until these body companies start producing them.

About a year ago, I talked about doing my own scale GTP bodies
in 200mm and 270mm wheelbase for the guys with Tamiya GTP and F1 cars because I thought there was a market for it. Unfortunately, I was laid off and those plans were put on hold. I am now working finally, but unfortunately I am NEVER home. And this is not about creating a market for a company I'd like to start. It's more about a scale enthusiast so frustrated with the RC car and body market that I'm willing to try and do it myself! So I don't know what else to say except thank you to you all who agree with me and have decided that I should be the "decider". LOL

In regards to WGTP, I believe in it and want to see it take off, but.......you can hire the band, hire the caterer, but if no one shows up, it's not much of a party!

Last edited by Ed Delgado; 10-04-2013 at 06:24 PM. Reason: Damn auto-correct typing thingy on iPhone!
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:33 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by 2wdrive View Post
Some of my bodies I used and abused

Protoform Peugeot MD in BMW V12 LMR colors



Protoform Peugeot HD


Andy sauber mercedes: is a Mercedes C11 and I made it in a Mercedes C9 michelin colors (made a mistake with the lightbuckets )


Real Mercedes Michelin (a model) but as far as I know it wasn't actually raced.

As a comparison real Mercedes C11 where the andy sauber is copied from, notice the low cockpit and nose in front of the cockpit. Windscreen wiper is even copied on the andy sauber mercedes.


Nissan P35 in some hotchpotch Lancia Martini colors. With blank backwing.



Some other pictures I found












If you see them as modelkits then no they are not scale but overall I think the 235mm bodies all look good when painted up like a race car and driving them on the circuit but that is only my opinion ofcourse . I only hear praises when they see the bodies I painted up, even from people that drive other classes. Most color schemes are quite simple with maximum 2 colors and some stickers from tamiya, HPI or DIY printing.

Good luck with the class whatever the direction will be.
Beautiful bodies by the way. The blue Michelin sponsored car is the Sauber Mercedes C9, and it did race in those colors in the German version of IMSA, their own national championship. It was call a Sauber Mercedes however, unlike the C11 that came after it which was officially called the Mercedes C11. The C11 was actually designed and produced by mostly Mercedes, and although the team was run by Peter Sauber's team, the car was officially a Mercedes. Also, they went from C9 to C11 in the model designation and skipped over C10 because apparently "C10" is very hard to pronounce in German.
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:53 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by NutDriver View Post
FOR ME (and just my $0.02 worth), I would like to see a move towards cars that are easier to drive, whether that is 1s/17.5 or whatever.
If the ultimate decision is for 2s, I would like to see 21.5 or 25.5. As I am a big fan of the structure, rules, and connections that USVTA have, I would like to put forth the idea of using the VTA motor(s) and ESC rules (if 2s is the decision).

Ed Delgado,
I would like to request an executive decision on a number of things:
1. 200mm, 235mm, or both?
2. 1s, 2s, or two classes?
3. Open on foams, or WGT spec (or other)?
4. Can we start a list of approved bodies?
5. Blinky ESC rules only?

Thanks,
Scott
Thanks to Dino in another post above for your comments.
Scott, I would say this in regards to your five points:

1. Separate, keep WGTP at 200 and the 235mm a class of its own.
2. I say go with 1s, same as used in 1/12 and 1/10 WGT.
3. I'd go with open foams-keep the tech situation simple.
4. Yes, let's do that. We can post pictures of the bodies and we'll discuss their merits and why or why not they should be legal.
5. Not sure, never raced a new style Lipo/brushless SC, but I do know they run blinky in 1/12 and WGT, as well as some others. So I'm leaning towards blinky.

Those are my thoughts on those points-I will not hand out any edicts until my "decider" status is made official....LOL
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