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Old 08-05-2013, 10:26 AM   #76
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From a club racer prospective , That's a year supply of tires right there !
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:51 AM   #77
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From a club racer prospective , That's a year supply of tires right there !
looked like my TCS Nats preparation 3 years ago.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:52 PM   #78
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At the IFMAR 2012 WC there was a limit on the number of tires allowed to run during qualifying and the finals with the aim to do exactly what is stated here in this thread, save money.
The result? Huge complaints about how 'ridiculous' this rule is and pointless, since this is a big event and the title shouldn't be decided on tactics but drivers should be allowed to have a new set for each run and do their best without thinking of tire wear.

From Liverc during their coverage:
"If we actually see this strategy executed, I will say right now this whole "control tire" thing at the worlds needs to go. I mean, come on; it's our sport's world championship and people will be sitting out the first leg of the A-main as a completely legit and understandable strategy? "

From Redrc during their coverage:
"With many drivers calling the event a game of tyre tactics rather than a World Championship with just two rounds of qualifying remaining the number of driver who still have to use their set set of tyres is getting very small"
Form Redrc again:
"Rheinard, who was only 17th for the round, said on the third run with the same tyres the car is just loose everywhere and while he still has the chance of a TQ run due to having new tyres he believes should the finals go to the third leg it is going to be very difficult to actually race"
later on they wrote:
"A World Championships that been dominated by tyre tactics the finals have not escaped the game playing with defending World Champion Marc Rheinard pulling up at the first full lap of the track to save his tyres for Leg 2. The German, who lines up 4th on the grid, said he ran the first lap in case there was any crashes but it was always his plan to save his tyres for Leg 2. 10th place starter Chris Grainger also pulled up on lap 2. With their cars sitting in the pitlane, their mechanics not allowed to touch the cars before they were post race tech-ed, they where soon joined by 1:12 World Champion Naoto Matsukura who rolled his Yokomo on lap 3 and the 2006 World Champion Andy Moore after 5 laps."
And the final word on the entire event from Redrc:
"A World Championship that was full of controversy mostly surrounding what are clearly crazy tyre rules, in the end a worthy champion was crowned."

So all the media and some 'decorated' drivers (except Jilles Groskamp who can clearly see the big picture) lashed a very strong argument against IFMAR and the limit on tire sets. With all this in mind it was innevitable that during the upcoming EFRA Annual General Meeting the representatives of each country voted for allowing the use for new tires on each run.
And now we all complain that this makes the cost too high.
On the other hand during the same period the IFMAR Worlds were run with the limit on tires the ETS season had just finished with similar rules, but somehow the drivers were OK with it and the media never commented on tyre tactics in the series... so go figure.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:38 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by John Doucakis View Post
At the IFMAR 2012 WC there was a limit on the number of tires allowed to run during qualifying and the finals with the aim to do exactly what is stated here in this thread, save money.
The result? Huge complaints about how 'ridiculous' this rule is and pointless, since this is a big event and the title shouldn't be decided on tactics but drivers should be allowed to have a new set for each run and do their best without thinking of tire wear.

From Liverc during their coverage:
"If we actually see this strategy executed, I will say right now this whole "control tire" thing at the worlds needs to go. I mean, come on; it's our sport's world championship and people will be sitting out the first leg of the A-main as a completely legit and understandable strategy? "

From Redrc during their coverage:
"With many drivers calling the event a game of tyre tactics rather than a World Championship with just two rounds of qualifying remaining the number of driver who still have to use their set set of tyres is getting very small"
Form Redrc again:
"Rheinard, who was only 17th for the round, said on the third run with the same tyres the car is just loose everywhere and while he still has the chance of a TQ run due to having new tyres he believes should the finals go to the third leg it is going to be very difficult to actually race"
later on they wrote:
"A World Championships that been dominated by tyre tactics the finals have not escaped the game playing with defending World Champion Marc Rheinard pulling up at the first full lap of the track to save his tyres for Leg 2. The German, who lines up 4th on the grid, said he ran the first lap in case there was any crashes but it was always his plan to save his tyres for Leg 2. 10th place starter Chris Grainger also pulled up on lap 2. With their cars sitting in the pitlane, their mechanics not allowed to touch the cars before they were post race tech-ed, they where soon joined by 1:12 World Champion Naoto Matsukura who rolled his Yokomo on lap 3 and the 2006 World Champion Andy Moore after 5 laps."
And the final word on the entire event from Redrc:
"A World Championship that was full of controversy mostly surrounding what are clearly crazy tyre rules, in the end a worthy champion was crowned."

So all the media and some 'decorated' drivers (except Jilles Groskamp who can clearly see the big picture) lashed a very strong argument against IFMAR and the limit on tire sets. With all this in mind it was innevitable that during the upcoming EFRA Annual General Meeting the representatives of each country voted for allowing the use for new tires on each run.
And now we all complain that this makes the cost too high.
On the other hand during the same period the IFMAR Worlds were run with the limit on tires the ETS season had just finished with similar rules, but somehow the drivers were OK with it and the media never commented on tyre tactics in the series... so go figure.
I do see your point here!

The problem is mixing of pros and amateur drivers in one event. For pros money is no issue since they are sponsored from the company's. But an amateur has to invest a lot of money to attend a race like this and when you see guys using new tires every race it gets frustrating since you can't afford it and then it's even harder to get a solid result.

The sport is getting more and more professional like every other young sport that is getting more and more popular, more company's come in sponsorship's pay'd drivers who travel the World. Maybe different rules for factory drivers and self pay drivers maybe even different events? But who want's to organize an event for 30 drivers anyway.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:43 PM   #80
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Always going to be an issue with tires somehow, just the way it is

ETS seem to do a pretty good job of it, as I have yet to see a driver sit out to preserve tires, or a stack of crappy one run tires
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:46 PM   #81
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Some drivers did sit out runs at ETS Gran Canaria I think, but for sure it wasn't an issue like the worlds.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:30 PM   #82
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You can solve part of the problem with tires be selecting spec tires that do not have such a fall-off after one run.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:33 PM   #83
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You can solve part of the problem with tires be selecting spec tires that do not have such a fall-off after one run.
Is that not also very dependant on the surface of the track chosen?
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:50 PM   #84
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Everybody that ignores this is a fool. Read the forums on here closely and you will see the drivers are looking mainly for cheep chassis spec-r, CSO ... How much can you save on one chassis, 100$/?? And now consider running new tires every run ... I can tell you for the majority it's a problem to spend money on two new sets per race!

It surely isn't the only factor but a big one for sure.

Everything is related to money these days. In Europe the numbers of drivers decrees and that's a fact. In our country there were 30+ drivers per race now we are 5-6 racers left. Same thing at our neighbor counties since I was driving there also!

ETS is another story. In Europe the distance between states is not as big and a lot of drivers can join (you can drive with a car) + the atmosphere is not so dense there and two sets for every racer

In this sport you need the masses of average drivers that support the company's with their money if the people won't spend it could be the end for some for sure. This is not like in real racing where the professional teams compete against each other.
These "average drivers" have every right not to use one-run tires at this event, if their aim is to save money. But frankly, when I look through the results and photos from ETS races, I see a HUGE amount of professional racers. Perhaps not "professional" in the sense that they are getting paid to race or even having 100% deals... But the ETS seems to feature just about the largest amount of racers who take this sport seriously than any event(s) I have ever seen. I don't see many of the club level type of guys who appear at the big races held in the US.

The ETS's tire rules seem to work pretty well for their series... but again, the ETS is just that, a "series". The cost to use one-run tires at a single event during the year, say the Euros or the Worlds, is one thing. The cost of doing that for each event during a 6-7 race series is quite another.

15 sets of tires @ $25-30USD a set? Maybe $400-450, instead of $75-90? You would be spending an extra ~$350 or so. While it certainly isn't cheap, I don't think it is cost prohibitive either. Not for an event like the European Championship... an event that is supposed to be the largest/most prestigious TC event next to the Worlds. Look at the big nitro races... they are moving to handout tires, a new set for each run. Look at off-road, 1/8th buggy... for a big race, those guys show up at the track with a ridiculous amount of tires. Way more than $400 worth.

Obviously using new tires each run is not a viable solution for club races, large series, and what not. But for the really big one-off events like the Worlds, I would much rather see the racing done on one-run tires rather than have a repeat of what happened at the Worlds last year.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:00 PM   #85
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I understand that tire treatment procedures are pretty involved now. Wouldn't a longer lasting (harder ?) spec. tire just kick that to a new and potentially dangerous level (i.e. exotic/harmful chemicals) especially at the big races ?
I mean if your there to win ...
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:12 PM   #86
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The limit on tyres at the worlds was a bigger problem than usual. This was because the drop off between new and used was MASSIVE. Two reasons for this IMHO (as someone who raced) is the wheel chosen by the organiser was rock hard and this always accelerates tyre wear. Also, tyre additives were not allowed. I tested with some of the worlds spec tyres with additive back home, and they were still usable for longer, the drop off was no where near as big.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:24 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by JamesL_71 View Post
These "average drivers" have every right not to use one-run tires at this event, if their aim is to save money. But frankly, when I look through the results and photos from ETS races, I see a HUGE amount of professional racers. Perhaps not "professional" in the sense that they are getting paid to race or even having 100% deals... But the ETS seems to feature just about the largest amount of racers who take this sport seriously than any event(s) I have ever seen. I don't see many of the club level type of guys who appear at the big races held in the US.

The ETS's tire rules seem to work pretty well for their series... but again, the ETS is just that, a "series". The cost to use one-run tires at a single event during the year, say the Euros or the Worlds, is one thing. The cost of doing that for each event during a 6-7 race series is quite another.

15 sets of tires @ $25-30USD a set? Maybe $400-450, instead of $75-90? You would be spending an extra ~$350 or so. While it certainly isn't cheap, I don't think it is cost prohibitive either. Not for an event like the European Championship... an event that is supposed to be the largest/most prestigious TC event next to the Worlds. Look at the big nitro races... they are moving to handout tires, a new set for each run. Look at off-road, 1/8th buggy... for a big race, those guys show up at the track with a ridiculous amount of tires. Way more than $400 worth.

Obviously using new tires each run is not a viable solution for club races, large series, and what not. But for the really big one-off events like the Worlds, I would much rather see the racing done on one-run tires rather than have a repeat of what happened at the Worlds last year.
Indeed I have also come to the conclusion that the majority of the racers at the ETS have some kind of support. Either factory, distributor's or local shop's support. Also most are from central Europe which makes travelling to the ETS series quite convenient.
On the subject of tires, as Jilles Groskamp very wisely pointed out in an interview at rcracingtv.net during this EC, it is not only the cost of the event itself that is very high but the cost of actual preparation since every single run you do in pre-event practice/testing must be done on a brand new set of tyres as a used set has different behavior and during the event you will never run a used set. In this respect even well funded teams see the costs being unreasonable having to supply each of their drivers with at least 8 new sets per day.
My approach would be 1 set for every 3 runs. If you have 6 qualifiers, allow 2 sets and 1 set for the 3 finals just like it was at the 2012 Worlds. Then count 4 out of 6, not just 3 out of 6 and you'll see racers avoid skipping a run to save tyres as consistency on points would be more important than outright speed.
Now regarding being a biannual event and the need to race under ideal conditions to provide a fair game for a true champion, I think it is wiser to look after the people who actually pay for their own participation for these events as without them these events would not be run.
It is interesting to note that at some point the arguments that some of the top drivers make loose their credibility. So at the WC it was the limited number of tyres and race strategy that screwed up their race, at the ETS it was the starting position that did not allow any chance to pass on the first corner and at the EC, although their request for new tyres on each run was met, it was the inconsistency of the tyres at fault and the bad behavior of their blueberry mutant car...
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:28 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
You can solve part of the problem with tires be selecting spec tires that do not have such a fall-off after one run.
As usual, Rick hits the nail on the head... Also limiting sets to the point where you can't get a result without running older tyres helps the sit out issue (2sets, three rounds to count, for example).

I will (and I'm probably biased here) but I still a big fan of the BRCA's rules, where its three sets for qual and finals... You use a new set when you want. Want to save sets for finals, go ahead, you can do that, but it might cost your quality result a little. Want to use all three sets in qual, again, your choice..
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:30 PM   #89
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Didn't they get away from foam because of cost. Seems to me getting back to foam would be the answer.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:33 PM   #90
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As usual, Rick hits the nail on the head... Also limiting sets to the point where you can't get a result without running older tyres helps the sit out issue (2sets, three rounds to count, for example).

I will (and I'm probably biased here) but I still a big fan of the BRCA's rules, where its three sets for qual and finals... You use a new set when you want. Want to save sets for finals, go ahead, you can do that, but it might cost your quality result a little. Want to use all three sets in qual, again, your choice..
How many qual runs are in BRCA?
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