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Old 07-26-2013, 10:04 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
In my opinion the best way to slow cars down, without changing their basic appearance (TC bodies), is to adopt the FWD platform as the standard TC format.

Cornering speeds will be reduced and two drive wheels will also limit the amount of power that can actually be used.
I've seen a number of people say that FWD touring cars are their favorite format. I've never driven one to understand why, or how they handle that makes people prefer them, but I'm certainly curious.
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Old 07-26-2013, 10:09 AM   #317
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I mostly agree with oceanhighz ( regarding having a competitive novice class but not by slowing down stock to achieve that ).

We have a "scale spec" class at Hangar 30 that is really a good speed for entry level racing ( spec 25.5 motors indoor , 21.5 outdoor ). It has proven itself to be very popular and a great starting point for beginners but also some veterans race it too. We run VTA with the scale spec class. New racers aren't intimidated by it and we don't seem to have a serious debate about slowing down stock from 17.5. It's a great mix and because it allows a multitude of cool looking bodies there are other aspects that people enjoy, outside of the speed of racing.

Link to our ( carpet ) rules page:

http://seattlercracers.com/specsrules/

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Old 07-26-2013, 11:20 AM   #318
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I don't think stock needs to be slowed down necessarily, but moreso there should be a push for a nationwide sanctioned competitive novice class. But if that is not an option, then making stock slower and keeping 17.5/13.5 may be another option. I'll keep running stock, but a novice class without as much pressure (staying out of the fast guys way, so as not to annoy them or frustrate newer drivers) and to get them used to racing and having fun. Major races have novice classes, ROAR Nats does not..... not saying necessarily it should, but some form of nationally accepted format would be beneficial for newer guys traveling as well, rather than each track having their own option.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:26 AM   #319
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I'm a novice-intermediate, but have been racing a little over a year. I think like other people, that it'd be beneficial to slow down stock or at least have a competitive novice class (maybe 21.5 stock and 17.5/13.5 super stock). Going to a different platform honestly would deter me. I enjoy running the cars I have, and honestly 17.5 speeed isn't too fast with some practice. but getting people in the door, a slower class is going to help. Then all people would need to switch is a motor and run a faster class when ready. While the front wheel drive may solve the problem, and you're much smarter and have been around WAY longer than I have. Your idea is probably like you said the best, but I don't see it happening. VTA is fairly successful and it get people comfortable with a touring chassis, driving and tuning. I'm not saying this class is the solution in the least, but at our track, its been a way to get people in, keep it relatively cost controlled and enjoying driving and learning their cars. I run with some top level guys and never expect to be as fast as them, I just enjoy racing. Many people get discouraged when they come to the track and run with some of these guys in the same class, and get womped week in and out... eventually to never return. I honestly think most of the higher level guys wouldn't want to step down to 21.5 or slower, because it'd be boring for them. The motors are already there, and everything else transfers over.

Some benefits of VTA that should be considered by a sanctioning body.... to get more racers in the sport and keep them:

-Slower motor, easier for drivers to control and learn their car without becoming too frustrated
-tires that last longer than a weekend or two (thinking mainly on carpet).... keeps cost controlled
-in vta the motors are all very close in function when kept legal (maybe for this purpose of stock....locked motor timing and sealed motor to make something similar, less to fool around with (no timing to think about, no messing with the motors.... beginners don't need this concern). Multiple companies who make them and submit so you can still run their brand. This seems to work at IIC and races where handouts are common.


USGT comes to mind when thinking of a slower class that seems to work.... make it blinky only esc instead of novak and the few others if that was a concern. Whether or not a body rule is like that class to run bodies outside of touring, doesn't make a difference. Scale bodies and things people can relate to also seem to help people come into the hobby. Scale bodies, realistic tires and wheels vs the always used dish... always attract attention. We get more comments at our track from people coming to spectate with VTA bodies/tire/wheels and when someone runs a more modern scale body etc than even the coolest paint jobs in touring.

I want to see more racers come and stay. The amount of guys we have starting in VTA at our shop, seem to hang around, get the hang of it, and move up if ready or when they want to. But they get in and stay because its controllable, fun and not such a big learning curve. Guys who try 17.5 right off the bat, I've noticed far fewer stay in it for more than a month before they get frustrated and sell of their stuff. All the new guys get plenty of help setup wise from the locals and pointers, so there is no difference here between VTA and stock as far as that's concerned.
Form a performance standpoint I think that VTA works as a package - slower motors with less grippy tires and less aerodynamic, heavy bodies. You are reducing performance on multiple levels. Putting a 25.5 with a fixed gear but keeping a PF light body and Sorex tires won't change much.

Scale appearance is what launched TC in the first place so it makes sense to return to that to try and attract newcomers.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:29 AM   #320
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I don't think FWD will attract newcomers personally. I think 17.5 is only too fast because newbies are getting 5 laps put on them, so they drive harder trying to go faster and get frustrated, when they really need time. This isn't a problem easily solved though since its such a popular class, and vta does fill that gap if enough are interested.

I would like to first see mod go wind limited, make it 6.5t or higher.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:55 AM   #321
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I don't believe in any official limitation of motor's or esc or battery's in mod.
The limitation should come from the driver. When I see that can't handle a 4.0 or 4.5 in mod I still can run other winds like 6.5 or up to 17.5 boosted in mod. nobody will hinder you to do so.
I get the feeling that anyone starts to call for limitation, when they can't win every race or class they enter. I'm not talking about Atsushi or Rick in my previous sentence.
BTW I'm not the fastest racer at all.

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Old 07-26-2013, 12:25 PM   #322
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I don't believe in any official limitation of motor's or esc or battery's in mod.
The limitation should come from the driver. When I see that can't handle a 4.0 or 4.5 in mod I still can run other winds like 6.5 or up to 17.5 boosted in mod. nobody will hinder you to do so.
I get the feeling that anyone starts to call for limitation, when they can't win every race or class they enter. I'm not talking about Atsushi or Rick in my previous sentence.
BTW I'm not the fastest racer at all.
But there already are, 2S only, 540 can size, there are specs to a mod motor, if people were strapping in 1/8th scale buggy motors with 6s packs, they could in theory hit 80-90mph, but why aren't they? because its TOO fast..
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Old 07-26-2013, 12:49 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
In my opinion the best way to slow cars down, without changing their basic appearance (TC bodies), is to adopt the FWD platform as the standard TC format.

Cornering speeds will be reduced and two drive wheels will also limit the amount of power that can actually be used.
This is also my opinion.

It would mean the end of all these different motor classes as on any small/mid sized track you'd be unable to get much speed up.
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Old 07-26-2013, 12:50 PM   #324
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I meant more rules as we already have.
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Old 07-26-2013, 12:52 PM   #325
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If we limit mod motors then people will use more boost. So boost might get banned too, then people will try to find more power by using the battery of the month and/or motor of the month ! Tech would be more difficult too. Sound familiar

Mod is a great refuge from the problems of "spec / stock" racing because most of the complexity and cost of finding the best electronics is removed by not capping the motor wind.

IMHO, The only thing that separates a competitor in mod is their driving ability and restraint with the trigger finger. If we could all sit in the cars we would have a natural ability ( aka : survival instincts ) that would stop us from over using the throttle.

IMHO, The only negative to Mod is the cost of tires. If there is anything that needs a rule overhaul its the tires / wheels / specifications of them.

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Old 07-26-2013, 01:49 PM   #326
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17.5 is definitely too fast for novices. I was one 3.5 years ago. I stepped up from scale spec to 17.5 too soon, and suffered a lot of breakages and frustration as a result.

The scale spec class Jake mentions is indeed great. Not everyone wants VTA. I prefer gt bodies. But our spec lets everyone compete on equal footing, and we allow front wheel drive TCs, rear wheel drive like the F103gt, and minis. It's been our biggest class this summer, and the number of new racers we're getting is fantastic. Most importantly, it's really fun. The last couple seasons I've told myself I'm going to stop racing it to focus on stock TC, and I always end up going back to it because it's just too fun.

But I think mod is important, too. I've just started dipping my toes into it, and I think it will help me make another step forward.

Also, from what I've seen locally, the really fast mod guys don't burn out. They get bored from lack of competition. But, at least at our club, we're starting to get enough people getting faster to have a legitimate mod TC class that keeps the fast guys coming back, and maybe even pulls a few of the vets out of semi-retirement.

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Old 07-26-2013, 01:58 PM   #327
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Leave mod alone.

Leave 17.5 alone.

Run VTA if you want to start out in a slower class. Most people like the realism of the class and that it's not nearly as intimidating to start with. A 17.5 car on the small indoor tracks is downright scary to newcomers. VTA around here was the biggest class over the winter during indoor season with people of varying abilities running it.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:19 PM   #328
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Leave mod alone.
Yes. A mod 4-5T is not undriveable at all. If you have some skill and patience it is perfectly fine on a reasonably sized track. Again, it's about finding the proper setup and the places around the track to put down the ample power whereas the spec classes are all about keeping the momentum going.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:45 PM   #329
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Yes. A mod 4-5T is not undriveable at all. If you have some skill and patience it is perfectly fine on a reasonably sized track. Again, it's about finding the proper setup and the places around the track to put down the ample power whereas the spec classes are all about keeping the momentum going.
I have been running mod for about 1 mos now. I have been running 17.5 blinky sedan for over a year prior to that and its not uncontrollable. I run a 4.5 in my T4 and I'm really only .4sec of the pace. And thst is because I am getting used to the infield with a 4.5T which is crazy fast. But in the past 3 weeks I have improved tremendously. I actually think it will make you a better driver all around. My times in 17.5 sedan have dropped since I have started running mod. I am almost getting bored with 17.5 now. It seems too slow.
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Old 07-26-2013, 03:06 PM   #330
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I have been running mod for about 1 mos now. I have been running 17.5 blinky sedan for over a year prior to that and its not uncontrollable. I run a 4.5 in my T4 and I'm really only .4sec of the pace. And thst is because I am getting used to the infield with a 4.5T which is crazy fast. But in the past 3 weeks I have improved tremendously. I actually think it will make you a better driver all around. My times in 17.5 sedan have dropped since I have started running mod. I am almost getting bored with 17.5 now. It seems too slow.
Not bad at all. As was stated many times in another thread: start by trying to match your 17.5T times, then keep progressing from there.

For myself it was a matter of keeping perspective and not getting impatient: Hanulec and I have already been running much faster than stock since I started running mod a month ago. Two weeks ago we ran a full two laps faster than 17.5T class at Jackson. Our cars were hooked up, and we drove well.

Schreff and Haynes (mod national champs) came down to run with us this past week. Naturally, they were faster, but we were not roadblocks by any means in qualifying, and it gave me a good reference point to practice against. By the end of the night practice and with some minor changes I was only .1s slower per lap than Schreff was on average. Having said that it still will take time, but it's not as difficult as it looks.

My biggest discovery: point and shoot. I'm really looking for places on the track where I can apply a good amount of power corner to corner. In 17.5 I tend to be smooth and just keep my momentum going everywhere. In mod this was hurting me as I'm getting eaten alive mid corner by this rolling tendency. If you watch Haynes and Schreff they are applying power wherever they can and consequently yielding better lap times.
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