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Old 01-03-2006, 12:33 AM   #1051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinkrat99
Hi Danny

Thanks for all the advice. I Currently use a 20A discharger to 5.4V or 3.6V and then before recharging, I use a Rayspeed equalizer. It has a 5A equalize then a 1A condition mode to 0.9V per cell. Based on your website, it seems you reccomend the Integy 030 which takes the cells down to 5.4V per pack but indivually to 0 V but you reccomend to remove when lights go out which is probably around 0.9 to 0.5V per cell.

I agree the best way to discharge is individually. Do you have any other reeccomendations for dischargers such as ?

Thanks
rinkrat99,

Since when does the 030 take a pack to 5.4 volts by itself without having to monitoring the voltage?
Also, the lights go off at 0.4 volts.

The 030 discharges each cell individually; it does not do it as a pack, which is better.

You may also find that you will get better performance from the IB if you discharge at 20 Amps, as you are doing. You can also do that by disconnecting one resistor from each cell on the 030. Each cell has three 0.1 ohm resistors. By cutting down to two the current will stay in the 20A rage.

The discharge current has nothing to do with battery training or anything like that; itís just the amount of heat that the batteries generate at 30A. Your cells will not loose performance and they will last longer if you discharge them at a lower rate like 20A.

The best way to upkeep the IBs is to discharge to 0.85 v/cell on race days. Then charge your pack to around 1300mah. The night before you will race, discharge your batteries on a low current equalizer that will bring the cells to around 0.4 to 0.5 volts /cell at no more than 5A. The lower the current the better performance you will get. Batteries equalize much better at lower current rates.
Then just charge your batteries as usual when you get to the track and repeat the cycle all over again.

You should notice consistency in your packs by doing this procedure.

I hope this will help you.
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Old 01-03-2006, 12:55 AM   #1052
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i have been hearing concerns about the 3800s and their consistancy long term. i have herd that they are not going to hold their performace curve over a long term as well as the GP cells. i know that i have some GP cells that are still killer charging to over 4000mah even after a year. i have herd that you might see a quicker deteariation in preformance in IBs then GPs. can anyone shine some ligbht on this.
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Old 01-03-2006, 01:12 AM   #1053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjm9898
i have been hearing concerns about the 3800s and their consistancy long term. i have herd that they are not going to hold their performace curve over a long term as well as the GP cells. i know that i have some GP cells that are still killer charging to over 4000mah even after a year. i have herd that you might see a quicker deteariation in preformance in IBs then GPs. can anyone shine some ligbht on this
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fjm9898,

First, as long as you maintain your batteries the right way you should not see any deterioration as you mention. The main issue is that many people are discharging the batteries the wrong way.

It is much better not to discharge than to discharge a battery the wrong way. Discharging can cause irreversible damage if not done properly.

Also, looking at charge mahr is not the way to judge a cell. You judge a cell by its discharge characteristics and mahr capacity while discharging, not while charging.
You will see that if you charge at different rates (current) the batteries will absorb different amounts of energy. This has to do with the chemical reaction of the cell and efficiency at high temperatures. As temperature raises, the cell will absorb less current, thus higher mahr charge numbers. Although charge mahr is important, it is used only as a comparison method that we call SOC... State of Charge and that takes into consideration the discharge mah rating too.

We have racers using 4 month old packs and they claim that they are as strong as when they bought them. In fact, one of our drivers won a MAJOR regional race with a three month old VoltaXX IB3800 pack.

The IB's are just as good as the GP's.
You just need to charge, discharge, and upkeep your batteries the right way.

If you need more help fell free to PM.

Isaac
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Old 01-03-2006, 08:05 AM   #1054
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Nice posts Issac.

Thanks.
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:19 PM   #1055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricO3
What do you normally set the cut-off at on a Integy 19X9v6 for IB3800's? Right now I have it at 3mV/C 18mv/P. What does each one mean and how does it affect charging by decreasing or increasing it? thanks!

-Eric
Anyone? Thanks!

-Eric
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:28 PM   #1056
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i dont own an integy so i cant help u there...


the 3 mv/c cell means the cutoff is at 3 millivolts per cell... 18mv/p means 18 millivolts per pack... (3 mv/c x (6 cells) = 18 mv/p)


when you increase this number the pack charges longer. when it decreases, te pack charges shorter....
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:39 PM   #1057
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Default fjm9898...my LHS rep told me that Danny told him...

the 3800s were not lasting. Take it for what it's worth, it was a good source. When I asked Danny, no reply. So I would say it's true. You got to pay to play.
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:46 PM   #1058
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Isaac, I believe your suggestions are great for battery maintenance and I have no doubt that you know your stuff when it comes to batteries, (although you are wrong about a couple of things concerning LiPo, but that's for another day..). I would just like to point out that on your suggestions for equalizing, then charging to 1.3ah for storage, then chargin on race day is good, but (maybe you just forgot this part) they pack really should be at least equalized immediately before charging for the race because, as you probably know, all cells have a different regeneration rate just as they have different AIRs, differing capacities and different slef discharge rates. Not equalizing the cells individually gives that one cell that has an abnormally high regeneration rate the chance to be vented from being out of balance.

And to better help fjm9898 understand mahr charge, consider the cell to be a sponge; even though the sponge can absorb exactly 20cc of water, that doesn't neccessarily mean you can squeeze 20cc of water out of it. Some of the water you just simply can't sqeeze hard enougb to get it out, some might be lost to evaporation, etc etc. What's important to you is how much actually comes out when you do need it and how efficiently it comes out too. LOL- kind of an odd comparison but most people get the idea.

OK, carry on men...
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:49 PM   #1059
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After being absent from this hobby for 6 years or so...I can honestly say I am glad the battery situation isnt now what it was then. With so many hi voltage good cell's available, as compared to 6 years ago...I am actually paying less now than I was then.

Think about it...

More run time
More voltage
And from a cell specifically designed for the rc industry....rather than a cell designed to run heart monitors and such in intensive care units.

Anyone remember how difficult it was to get really really good 2000 packs?


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Old 01-03-2006, 08:39 PM   #1060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCknight
the 3800s were not lasting. Take it for what it's worth, it was a good source. When I asked Danny, no reply. So I would say it's true. You got to pay to play.
IB cells do hold up real well. In fact when taken care of properly they hold up better than GP cells. We do see some cells that have internal shorting happening which will reduce the runtime of that cell. When this happens it normally happens in the first few cycles. We do replace these cells when it happens. Intellect is working hard to get rid of this issue but at the moment it's tough for them to fix this without hurting the performance.
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Old 01-03-2006, 08:41 PM   #1061
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I set my personal best last week with a pack I purchased in May....

Still running strong at the end of my run....last laps as fast as my first few...

I'd say they hold up just fine for me
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Old 01-03-2006, 09:34 PM   #1062
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BigDogRacing,

I agree with you about the equalization issue. I should have mentioned it.

BTW, Your analogy about the sponge was GREAT!!!

I re-read your response and I thought that I did mention to equalize the cells before racing (the night before). I have that in all my instructions and even at our website HOW TO GUIDE and FAQ. MY MISTAKE
www.axxis-racing.com/howto.html
http://www.axxis-racing.com/faq.html...D5B5B100253430
This has to do with race day, in-between cycles (thats what I thought when I read your response)

To equalize cells properly, it must be done at a lower current, otherwise the margin of error is just the same because you are discharging at higher currents and the IR comes into play. Also, in my opinion, it is better NOT TO DISCHARGE during race day if you do not have the time for the cells to cool down. A battery charges better and you get better performance even if not completely equalized after a run if the pack cools down. The temperature affects the charge potential.

I hope this clears this issue.
As a fact, in the discharge and use instructions that are included with our battery packages, I do instruct users to do after race equalization...as long as they have the time.

I have seen more batteries ruined because of over discharging, thus I recommend that when the time is not available to do it right, it is better to skip that step.

Regarding LiPo, I have no idea what you disagree with me, but that is not important (and I would like to hear from you, so please PM). I do have one thing to say; much more is being made about the Lipos than the reality. In my opinion, NiMh will be around for a long time. They are a better cell for our demanding r/c applications.

However, if you have been testing R/C quality LiPos v. Industrial grade there are HUGE differences. I do consulting and I have tested LiPos for automotive applications that are just amazing. However, the cost will keep them away from r/c until they come down in price.

Just as in NiMH batteries, there are different grades of LiPo cells. And the high end LiPos have different discharge characteristics than the r/c type LiPos I have tested.

Isaac

Last edited by BATT_MAN; 01-03-2006 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 01-03-2006, 09:42 PM   #1063
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hi guys need some info here i have trinity pro mach 3700 batterys i charge with a ice at 5 amps after racing i put it on a bulb discharge tray with a 5.4 cut off under a pc fan to keep them cool now i also have a lrp battery conditioner tray with a 0.6 cut off { never used it} must i now bring them down to 0.6 after the 5.4 also under a fan or not. also do need to wait 2 hrs to recharge them {even if they are under a fan when discharging them}
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Old 01-03-2006, 09:44 PM   #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
IB cells do hold up real well. In fact when taken care of properly they hold up better than GP cells. We do see some cells that have internal shorting happening which will reduce the runtime of that cell. When this happens it normally happens in the first few cycles. We do replace these cells when it happens. Intellect is working hard to get rid of this issue but at the moment it's tough for them to fix this without hurting the performance.
Danny,

We have done numerous tests regarding this so called problem and we found that the majority of the times the internal short is caused by overheating the cells when soldering (or discharging), NOT FROM RACING!!!!

IB's are GREAT cells and will stand against any cell in the market. However, users MUST take care of their cells from the moment they receive them. If overheated while soldering (or when discharging), there is a possibility of damage. We have seen from minimal to terminal damage.
We also exchange the cells when this has happens, but the returns and failure rates are minimal compared to what we were noticing three months ago.

We are instructing our customers to be very careful when soldering and discharging, and this has solved the problem for us.

Using better solder, the right Flux, and the right soldering iron makes the difference. Many racers are using 40 or 50 Watt soldering stations set at 800+ degrees and they are overheating the electrodes. If they would use a 100W - 700F soldering iron they would notice the difference. It only takes 2-3 seconds to get a PERFECT connection when the right soldering supplies and equipment is used.

The discharge rates are also important. Excessive heat from high current discharge rates are not beneficial and can hurt or damage the cells.

Isaac

Last edited by BATT_MAN; 01-03-2006 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:10 PM   #1065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BATT_MAN
Danny,

We have done numerous tests regarding this so called problem and we found that the majority of the times the internal short is caused by overheating the cells when soldering (or discharging), NOT FROM RACING!!!!
How about discharging at 25A ? or 35A ? Currently I'm discharging / cycling @ 25A because (1) the air temperature here is 33C (2) many said GFX get damage when discharging / cycling @ 35A.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BATT_MAN
The discharge rates are also important. Excessive heat from high current discharge rates is not beneficial and can hurt or damage the cells.

Isaac
What is safe number considering the air temp here is 33C.
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