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Old 04-29-2005, 04:50 PM   #61
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Man I love this type of debate.....

I think this type of debate is worse then any political type debate on more then one level.

Both tires have their place in racing today...it just comes down to what the racer likes to use. Both are expensive to race to race I donít see one being any cheaper then the next at the current state and cost of everything. If anything foams would be cheaper at a bigger race just because the entry fee is lower and you donít have to buy hand out tires so you can shop for the tires that you know work and get them at a good price before you get to the big race. The savings there isnít really that much.

On Asphalt I see foam tires having huge money savings over rubber tires. Most cases on asphalt you can really over cook rubber tires in 2 5 minute runs and you can see the disparity of fresh to old rubber tires more on asphalt. With Foams you can get Nitro foams cheap and they last longer and are just as fast from run 1 to run 15. Try that out side with take-off 27's or sorex 36's....itís just doesnít happen. Iím not anti rubber tire by any means I like to race rubber tires but most of the more competitive races are run on foams here in the US. If I was in Europe it would be the other way around and be racing rubber tires more. There is never an end to this type of debate but its fun to read everything.

GaryÖ..I donít think Foams are dead locally at all. Most of the foam tire racing is very seasonal around here locally and it comes and goes kinda like the great heards of 12th scale cars that seem to grow before cleveland then die down. I dont think its b/c of the price as much as itís a super competitive class and most times itís the same 8 or 10 guys in the main every weekend and its hard for someone new to make it into the main. Think back to when we all raced rubber tires we had two rubber tire classesÖSportsman and Expert. Now most of the Expert drivers are in Foams and then now there is only 1 rubber tire stock class. I feel that it is more that guys want to make an A main and donít want to work at making the A main at another level. If all the foam tire racers came back to rubber tires would there still be only 1 rubber tire stock class or would they want to have 2 classes again so that there are more A mains to go around and they donít have to race with the more competitive racers?
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Old 04-29-2005, 05:00 PM   #62
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By dead locally, I am speaking of 1 track, not an entire region. I would love if you guys would run rubber again. Like I said, I think it makes for better racing than foams do. But the only time Foam picks up is right before Cleveland, right before Novak, and a little before the Birds. Also look at the Midwest Series...almost a 2:1 the rubber turnout over foam. Why? Because it's not as much of a battery and motor war in rubber as in foam. It's more about driving and setup.
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Old 04-29-2005, 05:06 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pro4Capece
Reasons nitro should run foams and electric run rubber on asphalt:

Nitro:
-Rubber tires are made to have heat cycles that last 5-8 minutes. This is when the rubber heats up and gives good traction. When the race is over, the tire is allowed to cool down and the molecules regain their tight structure. If a tire is pushed to hard, the tire will overheat, and start to "feather" and lines will form across the contact patch.
-Longer mains which will shred up rubber tires due to the intense heat cycle that last 45 minutes.
-A nitro heat usually last 8 minutes. 3 minutes of warm-up and 5 minutes of racing.
-Nitro cars need the traction that rubber tires create due to the high (for their scale) g-forces since they weight so much.
-A foam tire is the same tire from the first run, to the next to last run. So as the tire experiences the 9 heat cycles during the main, it will not change the setup as drastically as a rubber tire would. Only change would be the castor and roll-center.

Electric:
-Most of the world runs rubber tires.
-More realistic.
-Cheaper for the average track.
-Tires only experience one heat cycle per race.
-Electric cars are lighter so they don't need the foam traction.
-Foams will chunk
-Rubber tires will not chunk.
BINGO!!!
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Old 04-29-2005, 05:11 PM   #64
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I wasnt implying anything other then 1 track as well. To be honest all the tracks really are seeing a drop in attendance in all classes. I dont think it has anything to do with foam or rubber tires as much as it has to do with there being so many tracks to choose from. Its not like it was back 4 years ago with about 3 or 4 tracks in our area.....now there is like about 7 or 8 tracks. So people are spread out more and that leads to making a class look dead so to speak.

It does make for better racing if we are all racing together but I get the feeling that if we all started to race rubber tires again it would get watered down with two classes. And to be honest if we did come back to rubber tires it would turn rubber tires into a battery war just like you say it is in foams b/c we are racing in that class and the competitiveness is still there....that was the reason that 2 classes were made before.

Both forms of racing are about setup and once you have that down you can exploit any motor or battery advantage you have. Just b/c you are racing on rubber tires it doesnt take away the fact that one guy will put on newer tires or have better batteries or motors all that plays a role no matter what tires are on the car. Its all about racing and tires are not an equalizer better stuff will gain you an advantage with any type of racing.
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Old 04-29-2005, 06:04 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin K
I wasnt implying anything other then 1 track as well. To be honest all the tracks really are seeing a drop in attendance in all classes. I dont think it has anything to do with foam or rubber tires as much as it has to do with there being so many tracks to choose from. Its not like it was back 4 years ago with about 3 or 4 tracks in our area.....now there is like about 7 or 8 tracks. So people are spread out more and that leads to making a class look dead so to speak.

That is also true for off-road in the Southeast. When I started RC about 3 years back, I was racing 2wd gas truck at a track with 70 other off-road racers. There was 1 track in SC, 1 in GA, and 3 in NC. Now there are atleast half-a-dozen tracks in SC, 3 in GA, and maybe 12 in NC. Not to mention the guys with their backyard tracks. So instead of 70 guys, maybe 30 will show up.

I now race mainly touring, and there is one consistantly attended track in each state. So that makes for dedicated racers. It's also fun to go to travel with your local racers and go to another track, talk trash about taking the "wood" back to SC, and then race them. It makes for a kind of team racing atmosphere. It's a lot of fun, and everyone enjoys bragging about how we dominated the GA boys.
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Old 04-29-2005, 07:45 PM   #66
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Foam, Rubber. Its all about personal prefrence. I was a ok rubber driver but I dicided to switch to foam for somthing different. I am having a balst with foam were some people may switch to rubber and have a blast doing that. I don't judge peoples driving abilitys due to what kind of tire they run. Just have fun doing what ever it is you enjoy
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Old 04-29-2005, 08:01 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soviet
BINGO!!!
LOL I can agree on why Nitro should run foam.

BUT....
Quote:
Electric:
-Most of the world runs rubber tires.
-More realistic.
-Cheaper for the average track.
-Tires only experience one heat cycle per race.
-Electric cars are lighter so they don't need the foam traction.
-Foams will chunk
-Rubber tires will not chunk.
-Most of the world does NOT run 19T so we should drop that class?
-More realistic? Why would realism not apply to nitro too. Perhaps we should only run 10th scale 4 stroke gasoline powered TCs that weigh 200 lbs? I find it crazy funny that you worry about realism in ELECTRIC but not in Nitro. ELECTRIC! lol
-Cheaper is not true. Even RCDriver Gary said it. He gets 4-5 runs from his rubbers if he runs an agressive setup. Where I race people do what it takes to win, so you are looking at nearly a new set of tires each week. Sure you can probably get more runtime out of rubbers if you race conservatively with conservative setups. I however have always thought that the goal of racing is to be the fastest. Thus I would have to buy new rubbers every weekend.
-Heat cycle schmeet cycle Only helps prove why nitro shouldn't run rubber not why electric should.
-Foams will chunk. I can't argue that! lol
-Rubber WILL chunk, or I should say rip/tear. Okay okay... so its not that common! lol

Gary was right... its like politics. People have their positions. Personally I would like to see rubber tires on asphalt and foams on carpet. Locally we run foams on asphalt because rubbers are too expensive, its a tough surface on rubbers and lap times drop significantly after a few runs. I tried running rubbers against the foams and was reasonably competitive for a couple rounds but it went downhill fast. Needless to say the following week I went back to foam. lol

And to be honest... for me and many I know the expense between rubber and foam tire racing would be the same... as much as we can throw at them before the wives find out!
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Old 04-29-2005, 08:23 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by JKA
LOL I can agree on why Nitro should run foam.

BUT....


-Most of the world does NOT run 19T so we should drop that class?


-More realistic? Why would realism not apply to nitro too. Perhaps we should only run 10th scale 4 stroke gasoline powered TCs that weigh 200 lbs? I find it crazy funny that you worry about realism in ELECTRIC but not in Nitro. ELECTRIC! lol
-Cheaper is not true. Even RCDriver Gary said it. He gets 4-5 runs from his rubbers if he runs an agressive setup. Where I race people do what it takes to win, so you are looking at nearly a new set of tires each week. Sure you can probably get more runtime out of rubbers if you race conservatively with conservative setups. I however have always thought that the goal of racing is to be the fastest. Thus I would have to buy new rubbers every weekend.
-Heat cycle schmeet cycle Only helps prove why nitro shouldn't run rubber not why electric should.
-Foams will chunk. I can't argue that! lol
-Rubber WILL chunk, or I should say rip/tear. Okay okay... so its not that common! lol

-There is the 17 turn class. And most of the world doesn't run 27t stock. They could run 23 turn.

-As I stated, it is not practical for nitros to run rubber tires.

-The key word is AVERAGE. The average track is not SoCal, Speedline, or TFB. It's Tom's Family RC Center, Johnsonville RC Club, or Tiny Town Touring Club.

-The heat cycle example proves that rubber tires were designed for electric 5 minute racing. So if a tire is specifically designed for a class, then why not run that tire?

-If you buy tires everyweek, but manage to tear a 2 run set, then you need to spend that money on practice fees instead of tires.
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Old 04-29-2005, 08:43 PM   #69
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If our track was smoother with a nice nitro residue on it I would run foams no contest but most tracks I see are not that smooth and don't have that nitro juice on them. I hate rubbers but you do what you must...
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Old 04-29-2005, 08:50 PM   #70
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Why do you hate rubber?
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Old 04-29-2005, 08:54 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pro4Capece
-There is the 17 turn class. And most of the world doesn't run 27t stock. They could run 23 turn.
Yep. So who cares about the rest of the world... run foams.

Quote:
Originally posted by Pro4Capece
-As I stated, it is not practical for nitros to run rubber tires.
The point was that realism is no reason to run rubbers. The realism went out the window when we started running ELECTRIC cars INDOORS on CARPET. lol

Quote:
Originally posted by Pro4Capece
-The key word is AVERAGE. The average track is not SoCal, Speedline, or TFB. It's Tom's Family RC Center, Johnsonville RC Club, or Tiny Town Touring Club.
What about an average track on the WV/Ohio border that gets about 40 racers each week? Thats where I run. And for the most part you have to pull out all the stops to win. Rubber is too expensive for extremely competitive racers.

Quote:
Originally posted by Pro4Capece
-The heat cycle example proves that rubber tires were designed for electric 5 minute racing. So if a tire is specifically designed for a class, then why not run that tire?
The Novak Cyclone TC2 esc was specifically designed for TC racing. Should we mandate it or allow the GTX? Gotta move on when better things come along.... like foam tires. And BTW, the multi ring foam tires (among others) are specifically designed for TC racing as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by Pro4Capece
-If you buy tires everyweek, but manage to tear a 2 run set, then you need to spend that money on practice fees instead of tires.
Wasn't me, but rather a new racer. The following week he tried foams and chunked one. He was happy though because he could still run the chunked foam.
**********

I just watched a video clip from the LRP race. Its a rubber tire race. I was amazed at how many wrecks I saw. Much more than I'm used to seeing in foam tire racing.

I do like the fact that, since people are more likely to make mistakes with rubber tires, 5 minute racing isn't the typical "one mistake and you are out" type of racing. I'll give you rubber lovers that much!
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Old 04-29-2005, 08:54 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pro4Capece
Why do you hate rubber?
They don't hold their performance levels very long and they are temperature sensitive.
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Old 04-29-2005, 09:04 PM   #73
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I agree if you like a type of tyre, run it.
I also feel that a control tyre is good as long as it doesn't restrict trade practices (Australia is a small community in the RC world of racing)

I hate people using the realism reason !!!
As far as realism goes, why are we stopping at the tyres,

Why not enforce more realistic bodies instead of the aero dynamic blobs that we race now.

We should run realistic paint schemes on the bodies instead of the fantastic art work that can be seen.

Why don't we enforce a true 1/10 scale weight limit on the cars we race, (150 Kg's)

Cars should always race with numbers and interior with driver figures.

Drivers and pit crew should wear fire proof driving suits and crach helmets like the real thing while racing

Why don't we limit the cars to true scale speeds of the real cars.

Now thats heading down the realistic route.

When you race at the top to win world championships or sheep stations, money is no object.

A question for my own information and all that have this happen
why do i find that when I run rubber tyres, (includes pre mounts) when the tyre is mounted as true as possiable, after a few runs they actualy go out of round, particularly noticeable where the belt joins are ????

For those who haven't been to a professional race meet, you still need a tyre truer for rubber tyres to scuff off the mould joins and to get the tyre as round as possiable when new.

I am not beeing negative to rubber tyre users, as I run both types of tyre regularly.
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Old 04-29-2005, 09:11 PM   #74
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by fastolfart
[B]I hate people using the realism reason !!!
As far as realism goes, why are we stopping at the tyres,

Quote:
Originally posted by fastolfart
Why not enforce more realistic bodies instead of the aero dynamic blobs that we race now.
I agree, I hate going to a race and seeing a sea of Strati or Mazda 6s.

Quote:
Originally posted by fastolfart
We should run realistic paint schemes on the bodies instead of the fantastic art work that can be seen.
Yup. I am so tired of people running 1-color blah paint schemes.

Quote:
Originally posted by fastolfart
Cars should always race with numbers and interior with driver figures.
You should always run #'s anyways incase the race director needs to hand score you
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Old 04-29-2005, 09:22 PM   #75
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over the pond there is no foam electric racing.. all rubber tires we
are way behind in the touring car world....LRP race no yanks in the main... let me quote kinwald " im going to germany to watch reinhard and hara race wich is cool for them but sucks for me...this was two days befor him and steve left...our american hopefulls have no hope on carpet ......foams are for nitro....
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