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Old 04-29-2005, 01:45 PM   #31
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SOME OF YOU PEOPLE AMAZE ME!


What is this silly crap I'm hearing about rubber only being good for 6-10 race days? Even better was the comment that some guy couldn't get his rubbers to last one day.

I gotta ask:

WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING TO YOUR TIRES?!!?

I've had a set of takeoffs that literally lasted a good half season if not longer, racing 3 quals and a main every Sunday.

The trick to making tires perform well and keep for a long period is to ensure that you have a good mechanical setup that doesn't place any un-due stress or wear on the tire. After that it's all about cleaning them, hitting them up with a little sandpaper and giving them a good slathering of compound. Then bag-em until the next race.


NOW FOR FOAMS:

Foams allow less-skilled drivers to be faster than they normally would be. They are inherently faster than rubber, however are WAY more expensive once you factor in the cost of a truer and the fact that you cut the heck out of them in order to go faster.

Foam outdoor racing puts "poor" people at a serious disadvantage.

I personally think it's rather unfair that some rich 30-something guy can buy foams left and right, cut them down, drive like a bat out of hell and price the teens and working 20-somethings out of the race.

Debbies RC World is about to build a brand-new outdoor course and the racers are currently debating what classes and tire types will be allowed.

I am a SERIOUS advocate of rubber-only racing outdoors and hope that common sense and not the almighty dollar prevail in this upcoming battle.

Keep foams on the 1/12th cars where they belong.

Besides, didn't touring car racing start out as a class that was supposed to be MORE like full-scale cars?!?!? Personally, I miss seeing touring cars in a battle outdoors on rubber with a little 4-wheel drift action coming around the corner.
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Old 04-29-2005, 01:54 PM   #32
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Man, with Soviet and I on the same side, I gotta be wrong

Wait a sec though...this is about running foams on ASPHALT Electric Sedans?!?!?! Man, what is wrong with this picture?
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:06 PM   #33
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Chad,

that would actually push me toward leaving the hobby. Not sure if I would actually quit on the spot though.

Also, didn't people run the 2002 indoor nats on rubber tires? I didn't see people having problems with a lack of grip in that race. Even the mod drivers seems like they had ample traction.
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:12 PM   #34
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The Novak race was also all Rubber until 2 years ago...I believe that Cleveland and Snowbirds were also Rubber for some time too. But Foam is easier to drive, with an abundance of traction making up for lack of transmitter skills....
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:17 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
Man, with Soviet and I on the same side, I gotta be wrong

Wait a sec though...this is about running foams on ASPHALT Electric Sedans?!?!?! Man, what is wrong with this picture?
Yeah..unfortunately, alot of our local racers want to run foams outdoors on our soon to be built asphalt track.

For nitro, I suppose its ok, but...

Talk about killing the spirit of the class.
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:30 PM   #36
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How bad must you be both driving and setup wise to have to run foams on electric cars on ASPHALT?!?!?!!
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
Foams make for more expensive, more discriminatory racing. As an example: Back when the Novak race still had Mod Rubber and no foam....2 Local drivers were able to make the A-Main for 2 years in a row against drivers like BK, Hodge, Toso, Baker, you name it. That has never happened once Mod went to foam. Are these drivers that much worse now? Are the factory guys that much better? Or could it be that the motor and battery war is a bigger factor in FOAM than Rubber, making it MORE EXPENSIVE!
The level and amount of talent attending the Novak race has also increased proportionally over the years. You saw local guys doing that well because there were only 8-10 factory pros attending at the time. The argument that fewer local drivers can compete against pros because the racing is done on foam tires is ludicrous.

To what was proposed in this thread, electric cars outdoors with foam tires would be rather silly. The nitro cars that run foams need the grip; we used to run rubber tires on them and we'd chew a set up in no time. Unfortunately people often run a softer foam tire that gives them more traction but burns away in a run, and it forces others to do the same to be competitive.

Indoors, I still say that the "rubber tires are cheaper" argument is a load of BS. I witnessed and experienced club racing with both, and I always spent less money (and put forth less effort) running foams than rubbers. On rubber tires, I knew that after two 5-minute runs, my tires were going to be .2-.3 sec a lap slower than a fresh set. Period. The fastest guys at the club would put a new set $40 set of tires on for the main, meaning they were spending roughly $80 for a weekend club race, just on tires. When you're of a similar ability, those few tenths of a second really make a difference.

On foams, they lost that advantage. I could skim my tires over and over and keep using the same set, and never lose a measurable amount of time. A single set of tires was cheaper (no more than $34), came pre-mounted, and left no question to inserts. New tires are of course still advantageous, but the racers at that level couldn't see an immediate benefit like they could with rubber, and it led to fewer guys throwing money at their cars.

I understand the other arguments against foam: loss of realism, less beginner friendly, high cost of entry. But people usually use one of those three to "back up" the cost argument, and then it becomes apples and oranges. Discounting the cost of a truer, foam tires are simply cheaper to run week in and week out on an indoor carpet track.
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:49 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soviet
Yeah..unfortunately, alot of our local racers want to run foams outdoors on our soon to be built asphalt track.

For nitro, I suppose its ok, but...
Why? Its a TC afterall. What inherent difference makes it okay for nitro to run foam but not okay for electric?

As for expense, the comments I'm hearing are nearly laughable.
You guys keep talking about how Rubber tires are not as easy to wheel, yet say that broken parts are a bigger problem with foam. I'd tend to think that your average racer would break more parts from a car that is more difficult to drive than from one that is easy. I don't understand your logic, 'cept as it applies to better drivers. Better drivers just might break more with foam, should we cater to them as such and leave the new guys out to dry?

Now you'll mention the cost of equipment etc. I raced foam for years without having to buy a truer. Someone will have one at the track, some tracks even have them , and if the guys you race with don't share then you've got bigger fish to fry than foam vs rubber.

Soviet... if you are maintaining the same lap times with your rubber tires over such a long period of use then you are not using those tires to their fullest potential when new. Granted that most drivers won't and thus rubber tires might last an average driver longer. But the driver that doesn't notice the difference between a 1 run rubber tire and a 20 run rubber tire wil not notice the difference between a 61mm foam and a 58mm foam. You've now more than doubled the life of a tire that will have the same grip throughout that life.

Gary - to support your price argument you quote the price of a premount then later state that you'd prefer to run different compounds and inserts. Care to elaborate on the expense involved with that realm of rubber tire racing? Plus you state that rollout is one more thing to have to do.... isn't determining optimal rubber compound/insert combonations a bit more complex than a couple little math equations!

As for the local racers having a better opportunity with rubber tires (as gary provide an example), I'd counter by saying that if the Pros ran rubbers regularly on carpet they'd eventually rise back to the top. They are there for a reason. Take them out of their element and place them in a locals normal class and the local will indeed be more competitive.

Motors and batteries? Are you serious? Lets let the whole country become much more experienced with rubber tire racing... to the point that everyone is "accustomed" to its idiosyncrasies then see how much effect motors and batteries play in outcomes. The tremendous added weight of rubber tires to the spinning drivetrain would only accentuate the difference between an average motor and batteries and a good motor and batteries, especially in the stock classes.
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:53 PM   #39
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I'd say the number of Pros that are there now versus when Danny D and Josh Hoenstein (granted, locals but awesome drivers on anytrack, anytime, anywhere) made the show.

Shane, look at the number of cars that finish a race in Rubber versus foam. Normaly 1/5th to 1/3rd of the feild in foam drop out in the main for one reason or another. Again, it's not just the cost of the tires, its also the cost of parts replacement, batteries, motors, wear and tear, etc. The cumulative (sp) cost of foams is higher. And I don't factor a truer into that becuase if you don't have one, you can generally have someone true your tires down for a Coke or Lunch or something like that.

You're also going back to a time in rubber where pre-mounts weren't the dominate tire. I am willing to bet that a good 60% or racers run CS 27's at the tracks around the country. They're a good value, they come premounted, ensure a level playing feild, and also eliminate the insert game from the equasion. With foam, you also get people running exotic compounds, and many times you get factory drivers running compounds not available to anyone else.
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Old 04-29-2005, 02:57 PM   #40
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Most of the tracks that run pre-mounts around the country aren't running on carpet.

Likewise, you're doing exactly what I said -- re-framing the argument to contain something else. I will agree wholeheartedly that foam tire racing is difficult for novice drivers, and they will break more parts. If I ran a track, I would keep a novice division running CS27s exclusively, just for that reason. It's one more way to keep them slower and under control. Plus, I know I broke plenty of parts racing rubber as well, so it's not like you never break; that just comes down to driving skill.

And the pros still break too. Look at last week's masters... in one of the mains, Rheinard, Hara, etc. all broke. And that's on rubber tires.

But, that's not even the point! haha
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Old 04-29-2005, 03:00 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by JKA
Gary - to support your price argument you quote the price of a premount then later state that you'd prefer to run different compounds and inserts. Care to elaborate on the expense involved with that realm of rubber tire racing? Plus you state that rollout is one more thing to have to do.... isn't determining optimal rubber compound/insert combonations a bit more complex than a couple little math equations!

As for the local racers having a better opportunity with rubber tires (as gary provide an example), I'd counter by saying that if the Pros ran rubbers regularly on carpet they'd eventually rise back to the top. They are there for a reason. Take them out of their element and place them in a locals normal class and the local will indeed be more competitive.
Again, you guys keep going back to something that exsisted back when rubber tire racing started and people were just learing. I have 4 inserts I run depending on conditions. 2 of those I've used for over 5 years, the other two were something that someone reccomended and I tried. The only races that I run tires other than Takeoffs are the TCS races. $11x2 for tires, $4 for rims, and I think the inserts are like $2.50 a pair. So $31 a set of 4. Other than that I run Premounts everywhere. The reason I'd like to run Take Offs is to get more running on Tamiya Tires for Nationals.

And the Rubber example I posted about the Novak Race...that's back when Even the ROAR carpet nats were rubber tires. They were running rubber carpet consistently...
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Old 04-29-2005, 03:01 PM   #42
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Foam all the way!
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Old 04-29-2005, 03:03 PM   #43
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No, you're right that you break, but it certianly seems an odd coinsidence that you get more breakage in foam than rubber. Look at the Midwest Touring Series we had here this past winter...5 races, 5 different tracks, but most DNFs in the A-Mains were in foam, not rubber.
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Old 04-29-2005, 03:04 PM   #44
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But a really good thing about rubber is they dont chunk
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Old 04-29-2005, 03:14 PM   #45
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The biggest thing is that the Foam/Rubber arguement is like talking politics. If someone is on one side, it's next to impossible to bring them over to your side. I don't like foam, I hate it, I think it makes for crap racing...Do I expect to change anyones point of view? Not really.
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