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Old 04-29-2005, 10:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mal
You'd be lucky if you get more than 2 race days on a set of double pinks trued down to 58-59mm.
Mike how long has it been since you have run foam tires? This is the problen with this debate most people do not run both and they like what they run so they speak without first hand knowledge. This discusion comes up every spring and fall when people move from indoors to outdoors. The fact is racing is racing both types of tires have there issues. Just enjoy racing.
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Old 04-29-2005, 10:31 AM   #17
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Nitro Sedan puts a lot more stress on the tires when compaired to electric. It's the long mains, you're putting a lot more runs in one day than electric guys put in 2+ days. I've gone through a set of rubber tires in one day on large nitro tracks that use VHT. Same goes with foams on that track, you're almost down to the rim by the end of the 20 min main.

For stock sedan, racing carpet, a set of CS27s will last you 6-10 race days. There is a drop in times though. In the later life cycle of the tire, lap times will drop by as much as .3 seconds.

Chad, it's been more than a year since I last ran foams. Are you telling me that foams have drasticlly changed since then? Have they came up with new double pinks that will last longer than 20 runs in modified?

Last edited by Mal; 04-29-2005 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 04-29-2005, 10:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChadK
Mike how long has it been since you have run foam tires? This is the problen with this debate most people do not run both and they like what they run so they speak without first hand knowledge. This discusion comes up every spring and fall when people move from indoors to outdoors. The fact is racing is racing both types of tires have there issues. Just enjoy racing.
I actually find no issues running foams. The tire diameter issue is a virtually a non-point as a larger sidewall is generally preferable for asphalt racing, as it provides a bit more side bite. I have run foams, on an EXTREMELY abrasive surface, and have gotten more runs out of them in STOCK, then the 19t rubber guys could get out of CS27's. The best part is the stock guys were FASTER than the 19t guys after they switched to rubber tires.

Rubber tires are for buggies, trucks, and playing in the cul-de-sac.
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Old 04-29-2005, 11:16 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mal
For stock sedan, racing carpet, a set of CS27s will last you 6-10 race days. There is a drop in times though. In the later life cycle of the tire, lap times will drop by as much as .3 seconds.

Chad, it's been more than a year since I last ran foams. Are you telling me that foams have drasticlly changed since then? Have they came up with new double pinks that will last longer than 20 runs in modified?
This is part of my point you are comparing mod and stock tire life! In mod those CS27's probably would not give enough traction and the softer tire will wear faster plus the mod power. 20 runs in mod is about right for the softer foams we are running with no drop off in lap times. Many of the stock foam guys run purple/plaids witch last longer. The fact still remains that if you want to be a top performance tire are going to be a large amount of money. I only wish the NW carpet racing was all on the same type of tire, 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other.

Mike would you quit carpet racing if all of it was on foam?
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChadK
This is part of my point you are comparing mod and stock tire life! In mod those CS27's probably would not give enough traction and the softer tire will wear faster plus the mod power. 20 runs in mod is about right for the softer foams we are running with no drop off in lap times. Many of the stock foam guys run purple/plaids witch last longer. The fact still remains that if you want to be a top performance tire are going to be a large amount of money. I only wish the NW carpet racing was all on the same type of tire, 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other.

Mike would you quit carpet racing if all of it was on foam?
19t is hardly Mod. On foams the tire wear in 19t was no more than it was in stock, at most a pack worse for the 19 turn guys.

Excessive wear occurs on foams most commonly due to a poorly set-up chassis. Foams don't make set-up any easier. Generally, they actually make it harder because now you're looking for extremely minute differences that the lack of traction provided by the rubber tires would never allow you to notice. Foams make the car easy to drive by providing traction, It's then about tuning for corner speed.
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:18 PM   #21
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Originally posted by JKA
[B]Calling RC Driver Gary! Calling RC Driver Gary! lol
This should be fun.... again.
Heeeeeeereeeeee I come to save the daaaaaaaayyyyyyyy!

Benefits of Foams:
Traction remains the same for the most part throughout the entire life of the tire.
Cars drive like slot cars

Negatives of Foam:
It's a money pit, i.e. to be fast it relies more on equipment (motors, batteries, esc's, dynos, etc) to be fast
Because of the increase in car speed, when there are crashes there tends to be more parts breakage.
You throw 90% of what you buy away because you true them down to nothing. Because of this, you will be buying more tires more often, hence combines with the increase in the broken parts make FOAM MORE EXPENSIVE!!!

Benefits of Rubber:
More realistic handling to full scale cars
Tends to need both an excellent driver and excellent driver to do well, instead of someone who can "slot car it" around a track.
Not as much of a motor and battery war
Go to any racetrack after a big foam race and a big rubber race...which track is more gummed up with Compound and smells like a medicine cabinet?
LESS EXPENSIVE, both on tires and parts. I get 4 Pre-mounts for $26 @ the LHS.
No dealing with rollout!

Negatives of Rubber:
Well, like real racecar tires, new is better and faster
There seems to be only 1 dominate tire now (CS27) and many tracks have gone to Spec Premounts for their weekly program (I like running a different rim/insert combo, for some this is a benefit)
The tires are heavier so laptimes are slower.

I ran foam back in the day, and again at the Novak Race for the Brushless class. For a total of 11 runs (4 qualifiers, 2 of which were DNF's, 3 A-Mains, and 4 practice runs) I had to use 3 total sets of foams! In that same time I could have done all that on 2 sets of CS-27's. Additionally, I needed to wrench on my car a lot more, having to change spurs to get the gearing right as my roll out changed (I ran a TC4), replace broken parts, and more. What's also funny is that my local track, which was a stronghold for foam racers, has recently had its foam class DIE! Those racers have either gone to off road or switched to rubber tires. There's a reason why...

Plus, the US is about the only place in the world that runs Foam on carpet. Everywhere else, including the recent LRP Champs, run rubber everywhere.
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:29 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
Heeeeeeereeeeee I come to save the daaaaaaaayyyyyyyy!

Benefits of Foams:
Traction remains the same for the most part throughout the entire life of the tire.
Cars drive like slot cars

Negatives of Foam:
It's a money pit, i.e. to be fast it relies more on equipment (motors, batteries, esc's, dynos, etc) to be fast
Because of the increase in car speed, when there are crashes there tends to be more parts breakage.
You throw 90% of what you buy away because you true them down to nothing. Because of this, you will be buying more tires more often, hence combines with the increase in the broken parts make FOAM MORE EXPENSIVE!!!

Benefits of Rubber:
More realistic handling to full scale cars
Tends to need both an excellent driver and excellent driver to do well, instead of someone who can "slot car it" around a track.
Not as much of a motor and battery war
Go to any racetrack after a big foam race and a big rubber race...which track is more gummed up with Compound and smells like a medicine cabinet?
LESS EXPENSIVE, both on tires and parts. I get 4 Pre-mounts for $26 @ the LHS.
No dealing with rollout!

Negatives of Rubber:
Well, like real racecar tires, new is better and faster
There seems to be only 1 dominate tire now (CS27) and many tracks have gone to Spec Premounts for their weekly program (I like running a different rim/insert combo, for some this is a benefit)
The tires are heavier so laptimes are slower.

I ran foam back in the day, and again at the Novak Race for the Brushless class. For a total of 11 runs (4 qualifiers, 2 of which were DNF's, 3 A-Mains, and 4 practice runs) I had to use 3 total sets of foams! In that same time I could have done all that on 2 sets of CS-27's. Additionally, I needed to wrench on my car a lot more, having to change spurs to get the gearing right as my roll out changed (I ran a TC4), replace broken parts, and more. What's also funny is that my local track, which was a stronghold for foam racers, has recently had its foam class DIE! Those racers have either gone to off road or switched to rubber tires. There's a reason why...

Plus, the US is about the only place in the world that runs Foam on carpet. Everywhere else, including the recent LRP Champs, run rubber everywhere.
Rubber Tire= Spool or one-way= broken Diffgears and or CVD's been there, done that. The extra rotating mass of the tires accelerates wear on driveline components, outdrives, CVD's etc.

Regardless, I know it's still cheaper to run foams. And how hard is rollout for you people anyway?
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:33 PM   #23
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Nope, most people have gone back to diffs on Rubber, at least on carpet. Also, tell me how on a belt drive that you're going to chew up a front gear? It's not that roll out is difficult, it's just an extra step to mess around with.
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:34 PM   #24
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But the world runs foam.
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:36 PM   #25
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rubber tires used to be very cool for sedan, but thanks to the "tire of the week" or "insert of the week" rubber tires are really expensive compared to foams. I like the pre-mounted handout tire idea, rubber tires generally take away some traction and the quickness foams provide therefore taking away from the motor/battery war and puts more on driving and chassis setup. But since handout tires are not practical at the club level foams are a better choice simply because of cost and it saves the agravation of rubber tire choice, insert choice, then trying to mount a tire with little or no sidewall.
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:39 PM   #26
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Gary aren't you running foam yet?
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by farls3589
Gary aren't you running foam yet?
Katzer fears foams. Traction is the nemesis of good clean racing!!!!

Gary and I always end up in this argument, and I always end it with this:
The two biggest carpet races IN THE ENTIRE WORLD run foams. Why you ask? because foams make for better racing........
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:53 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by farls3589
But the world runs foam.
No, the USA runs foam, the rest of the world runs Rubber...

Quote:
But since handout tires are not practical at the club level foams are a better choice simply because of cost and it saves the agravation of rubber tire choice, insert choice, then trying to mount a tire with little or no sidewall.
No, but having a spec tire for the track for club racing has worked. The track I race at most of the time has Spec-ed CS-27 Premounts for over a year.

Quote:
Katzer fears foams. Traction is the nemesis of good clean racing!!!!
Gary and I always end up in this argument, and I always end it with this:
The two biggest carpet races IN THE ENTIRE WORLD run foams. Why you ask? because foams make for better racing........
I don't fear foams, I don't like them, pure and simple. I don't like the mess, don't like the expense, among other things. Why does Cleveland run foams...at a Trinity/TRC Sponsored event...Hmmmmmmm. Josh has also had a big influence on the penetration of Foams into carpet racing in sedan as well.

Foams make for more expensive, more discriminatory racing. As an example: Back when the Novak race still had Mod Rubber and no foam....2 Local drivers were able to make the A-Main for 2 years in a row against drivers like BK, Hodge, Toso, Baker, you name it. That has never happened once Mod went to foam. Are these drivers that much worse now? Are the factory guys that much better? Or could it be that the motor and battery war is a bigger factor in FOAM than Rubber, making it MORE EXPENSIVE!
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Old 04-29-2005, 12:55 PM   #29
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Now, Ian. Why are you jumping to the end so fast? We like the week long debate every 3 months.
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Old 04-29-2005, 01:18 PM   #30
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I run a mugen mtx3 at Rev on foams. i can usually get one race in before i have to dump the tires. I'm fairly new to this so i don't true the tires down or anything. I have a TC3. Everyone at Rev runs foams. I want to try a set of rubbers and see how they do. It seems crazt to have to buy three set of foams for a race, where you could have just bought one or two sets of rubbers. I am not looking to go hardcore into this, just a casual racer that would like to save some coin!
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