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Old 03-14-2013, 07:33 AM   #46
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It has nothing to do with being a 'surface snob'. As Rick has rightly said, the predominant surface of choice globally for 1/12 scale is carpet. If the event is on asphalt then people, especially Europeans, won't make the trip; fact.

From a personal perspective, why would I spend hundreds (probably thousands) of dollars to travel half way across the globe and race on a surface I have absolutely no experience of in that particular class? I could rock up, find I have the wrong tyres and then it becomes a wasted trip. If you were a professional mountain biker you wouldn't enter the Tour De France would you?

The last few times the 1/12 worlds have been on tarmac (Thailand 2008, Florida 2004) the entry has been pretty low.

On-Track '98 was where the ISTC exhibition 'World Cup' race was held. There was also 1/12 scale and pro10 held on the same track (different layouts) over a 2-week period. Spashett won all 3 classes and the event is still regarded by many as one of the best of all time. Ask Ernie Provetti what he thought of it.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:47 AM   #47
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Personaly I see no reason to not run 1/12th on asphalt as the same thing happens on carpet.

WC 1/12 last year in Holland there was only one tire brand that worked good on that crc carpet. The rest didn't hook up. It was a tire brand from Japan which the yokomo guys already figured out before they even came to the Netherlands. All the rest of the drivers bought those tires at the track.
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:58 AM   #48
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Officially, no tc worlds on carpet. Spashett won the ISTC exhibition at a WC in the 90's. 94 maybe? The racing at the ETS carpet events seems like pretty good stuff, and most of the top drivers are generally in attendance. I don't think it would be out of the question to run the tc' s on the rug. I actually think they should alternate surfaces for both classes every two years.
Spashett won in 1998. I remember RCCA did a feature on his three winning cars.

THat said, I dont see why they cant run both indoors. There are rubber tire compounds that have proven effective on carpet, and if nothing else, there would be plenty of time to not only design a challenging layout for both domestic drivers but the international drivers as well, but, if a venue can be decided on before the end of the year, there can be plenty of time to test for a proper control tire for 12th scale as well.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:32 AM   #49
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It has nothing to do with being a 'surface snob'. As Rick has rightly said, the predominant surface of choice globally for 1/12 scale is carpet. If the event is on asphalt then people, especially Europeans, won't make the trip; fact.

From a personal perspective, why would I spend hundreds (probably thousands) of dollars to travel half way across the globe and race on a surface I have absolutely no experience of in that particular class? I could rock up, find I have the wrong tyres and then it becomes a wasted trip. If you were a professional mountain biker you wouldn't enter the Tour De France would you?

The last few times the 1/12 worlds have been on tarmac (Thailand 2008, Florida 2004) the entry has been pretty low.

On-Track '98 was where the ISTC exhibition 'World Cup' race was held. There was also 1/12 scale and pro10 held on the same track (different layouts) over a 2-week period. Spashett won all 3 classes and the event is still regarded by many as one of the best of all time. Ask Ernie Provetti what he thought of it.
That's kinda what I was alluding to Mark. I guess my sarcasm didn't carry through in my post. I was trying to infer that the TC guys should suck it up and race a WC on carpet, pointing out that they've been "surface snobs" demanding GIGANTIC asphalt tracks. I think it's supremely entertaining to watch the best TC drivers in the world do battle on smaller, tighter tracks. To me it makes the racing more intense, and exciting.

I remember Spash's Street Weapon, and Switchblade 10 and 12. He pretty much OWNED that event.
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Old 03-14-2013, 04:50 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Mark Stiles View Post
It has nothing to do with being a 'surface snob'. As Rick has rightly said, the predominant surface of choice globally for 1/12 scale is carpet. If the event is on asphalt then people, especially Europeans, won't make the trip; fact.

From a personal perspective, why would I spend hundreds (probably thousands) of dollars to travel half way across the globe and race on a surface I have absolutely no experience of in that particular class? I could rock up, find I have the wrong tyres and then it becomes a wasted trip. If you were a professional mountain biker you wouldn't enter the Tour De France would you?

The last few times the 1/12 worlds have been on tarmac (Thailand 2008, Florida 2004) the entry has been pretty low.

On-Track '98 was where the ISTC exhibition 'World Cup' race was held. There was also 1/12 scale and pro10 held on the same track (different layouts) over a 2-week period. Spashett won all 3 classes and the event is still regarded by many as one of the best of all time. Ask Ernie Provetti what he thought of it.
99% of Australian racers have no experience on carpet. Would fewer of them consider travelling to the Worlds if it were on carpet? No, I don't think so.

Choosing the venue for a World Championship should be made on considerations of a sporting nature rather than popularity. Ideally we'd have a World Championship that featured all sorts of different tracks and surfaces every year to choose a World Champion, but the nature of the sport makes that unfeasible, so we should at least try and make sure that the WC venues vary so that on average the event represents the variety in the sport worldwide.

If Tennis had no grand slam but just a single World Championship would the tournament always have to be held on hard court? That's the equivalent of what you are saying.
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:57 PM   #51
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Hmm,
tennis players are contractually obliged to go on tour, they have favourite surfaces and stand to win in the region of $2M(US).

You can't seriously expect hobbyists to fly half way across the planet to race on a surface the don't want to race on?
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:41 PM   #52
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Hmm,
tennis players are contractually obliged to go on tour, they have favourite surfaces and stand to win in the region of $2M(US).

You can't seriously expect hobbyists to fly half way across the planet to race on a surface the don't want to race on?
Ok, let's compare it to Tennis at the Olympics then for which the players aren't paid.

Games Venue, Surface
1896 Athens, Grass
1900 Paris, Grass
1904 St. Louis, ?
1908 London, Grass
1912 Stockholm, Grass
1920 Antwerp, Grass
1924 Paris, Grass
1988 Seoul, Hardcourt
1992 Barcelona, Clay
1996 Atlanta, Hardcourt
2000 Sydney, Hardcourt
2004 Athens, Hardcourt (DecoTurf)
2008 Beijing , Hardcourt
2012 London, Grass

Most of the world plays on Hardcourt, but the French and Spanish play mostly on Clay, and the English play mostly on Grass. When the Olympics is hosted in those countries they tend to play on the surface that is most commonly used in that country (at the time). It's just a matter of whichever surface the most suitable venue in the host city has.

I don't see why RC should be any different. In fact I think the EP OFR WC rules should be changed to allow Grass and artificial surfaces so as those in Europe and the UK get a chance to race at the Worlds occasionally on the surfaces they are familiar with.
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Old 03-14-2013, 07:16 PM   #53
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At the moment the US seems to be having trouble finding a venue who even want to host the event.

A real pity.

It says they are 'accepting bids', is this just a case of the tracks saying 'please consider us to run it' or is there actually money involved in the bid?

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Old 03-14-2013, 07:52 PM   #54
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I don't see why RC should be any different. In fact I think the EP OFR WC rules should be changed to allow Grass and artificial surfaces so as those in Europe and the UK get a chance to race at the Worlds occasionally on the surfaces they are familiar with.
You may be missing Marks point here RA

Obviously Full Factory Team drivers will race on any surface the event is held at
Factory Teams race to win, and promote their product

However this is only a small margin of the drivers who compete at such large events

Most of us are event fillers, and go to enjoy the event
Racing on an unfamiliar surface might be fun for some, but others will vote with their wallets, stay home, thereby causing smaller turnouts

Mark has been at this for years, as have others, he knows what's up

If Australia have a significant amount of 12th racers willing to spend $$ to travel and race at the Worlds, then great, maybe that will make up for numbers lost from other countries...

I like 12th on carpet or pavement, so long as it's a sweet track, at a decent local
If I'm going to spend $$ to go to an event such as the Worlds, these are the basics, not that my budget would allow for such a thing unless it was nearby
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:00 PM   #55
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The host track has to put up a sanction fee and put up a performance bond. It's a little unclear to me, but I believe 1.4.2 and 1.4.3 refer to all events except electric onroad. 1.4.4 I believe refers to electric onroad exclusively, being a single performance bond of $2000usd covering both events: TC and 1/12th. The $500x2 ($1000 total) sanction fee is not refunded, as I read it.

It's a total upfront nut of $3000 before dropping a dime on track or improvements. That and however many hundred hours of volunteer time and anxiety leading up to and during the event itself. Not to say it's impossible, as clearly the event has been hosted many times. But, it's a serious undertaking and I'm sure all who consider it want to do their country proud.
1.4 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP CONTRACTS
1.4.1 The Contract between a World Championship Organiser(s) and IFMAR must be agreed to and signed immediately after the venue selection or at least twelve (12) months before the event. After signing of the Contract no rule changes that may have influence over the organising aspects are allowed, except for blatant errors, unforeseen circumstances or urgent matters.

1.4.2 At the time of signing, or twelve (12) months beforehand, the Race Sanction Fee of $500.00 U.S. (up to 150 drivers) or $750.00 U.S. (over 150) must be paid to IFMAR.

1.4.3 The $2,000.00 U.S. (up to 150 drivers) or $3,000 U.S. ( over 150 drivers). Performance Bond must be paid to IFMAR against an invoice not less than twelve (12) months before the event and is refundable, in full or in part, on the satisfactory completion of the event as adjudged by the relative Executive Committee of IFMAR.

1.4.4 An IFMAR Sanction Fee of $US500 is required to be paid for each on-road electric event, i.e. 1/12th and International Scale Touring Car classes, plus a Performance Bond to the total amount of $US2,000 covering both events. The $US2,000 Performance Bond, or a portion thereof, will be retained by IFMAR if either of the two (2) on-road electric events is adjudged, by the relative Executive Committee of IFMAR, to have been completed unsuccessfully.
Full document here: http://www.ifmar.org/pdf/rules/ifmar...neral_2011.pdf
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:17 PM   #56
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You may be missing Marks point here RA

Obviously Full Factory Team drivers will race on any surface the event is held at
Factory Teams race to win, and promote their product

However this is only a small margin of the drivers who compete at such large events

Most of us are event fillers, and go to enjoy the event
Racing on an unfamiliar surface might be fun for some, but others will vote with their wallets, stay home, thereby causing smaller turnouts

Mark has been at this for years, as have others, he knows what's up

If Australia have a significant amount of 12th racers willing to spend $$ to travel and race at the Worlds, then great, maybe that will make up for numbers lost from other countries...

I like 12th on carpet or pavement, so long as it's a sweet track, at a decent local
If I'm going to spend $$ to go to an event such as the Worlds, these are the basics, not that my budget would allow for such a thing unless it was nearby
I do understand his point. I just don't think the "tyranny of the majority" should be used to make a sporting decision.

The host should be able to select any surface on which that class of racing can reasonably run. The decision shouldn't be mandated in the rules. Now, I don't mind if the host takes into consideration how many racers are likely to travel to race in making their decision on the surface that's their prerogative. But it shouldn't be the only factor, and the option to run on the surface on which it all started should be retained so that it can be used if circumstances warrant it.

This may not be obvious to those from countries with abundant carpet tracks, but just having the Worlds regulations specifying carpet is having an impact on 12th scale numbers in other parts of the world. As I've already said, there are very few carpet tracks in Australia, because of that a lot of people don't even consider 12th scale as a class they can race. They see what is in the International magazines and think that's the only way to do it. We also have some excellent small paved indoor tracks though, on which the traction is as good as carpet, and many outdoor tracks that are also suitable. We have to constantly run an education campaign to keep 12th a class people can run here. This would be made easier if the occasional international 12th race was held on pavement.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:54 PM   #57
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The host should be able to select any surface on which that class of racing can reasonably run. The decision shouldn't be mandated in the rules.
If this was the rule the UK might be able to run a 1/10th off road worlds again, but I would also expect a lot of non-UK racers would stay away as we would have a massive home advantage on our high grip astroturf tracks, tyres designed for them and unique setups for them. Just the same home advantage as running 1/12th on pavement. We know the off road worlds will be run on dirt because it seems just about everywhere else runs on it, so we have to deal with it.

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This would be made easier if the occasional international 12th race was held on pavement.
That's the problem we've already done that, it wasn't a pleasant experience for most and that's why you will find it hard to get 1/12th racers prepared to race on anything but carpet. The 2008 1/12th world championship was run on pavement in Thailand and Matsukura and Levanen had the race sewn up after the first round due to having unique Yokomo tyres that worked so much better than all the rest. After that you will find it hard to get drivers interested in travelling halfway round the world to a race meeting knowing you have no chance of doing well.

The "tyranny of the majority" comes down to the fact that the worlds has to attract enough racers to help pay for the event. If FEMCA can find enough drivers to replace all the missing Americans and Europeans then running on asphalt wouldn't be a problem.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:00 PM   #58
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The host track has to put up a sanction fee and put up a performance bond. It's a little unclear to me, but I believe 1.4.2 and 1.4.3 refer to all events except electric onroad. 1.4.4 I believe refers to electric onroad exclusively, being a single performance bond of $2000usd covering both events: TC and 1/12th. The $500x2 ($1000 total) sanction fee is not refunded, as I read it.

It's a total upfront nut of $3000 before dropping a dime on track or improvements. That and however many hundred hours of volunteer time and anxiety leading up to and during the event itself. Not to say it's impossible, as clearly the event has been hosted many times. But, it's a serious undertaking and I'm sure all who consider it want to do their country proud.
1.4 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP CONTRACTS
1.4.1 The Contract between a World Championship Organiser(s) and IFMAR must be agreed to and signed immediately after the venue selection or at least twelve (12) months before the event. After signing of the Contract no rule changes that may have influence over the organising aspects are allowed, except for blatant errors, unforeseen circumstances or urgent matters.

1.4.2 At the time of signing, or twelve (12) months beforehand, the Race Sanction Fee of $500.00 U.S. (up to 150 drivers) or $750.00 U.S. (over 150) must be paid to IFMAR.

1.4.3 The $2,000.00 U.S. (up to 150 drivers) or $3,000 U.S. ( over 150 drivers). Performance Bond must be paid to IFMAR against an invoice not less than twelve (12) months before the event and is refundable, in full or in part, on the satisfactory completion of the event as adjudged by the relative Executive Committee of IFMAR.

1.4.4 An IFMAR Sanction Fee of $US500 is required to be paid for each on-road electric event, i.e. 1/12th and International Scale Touring Car classes, plus a Performance Bond to the total amount of $US2,000 covering both events. The $US2,000 Performance Bond, or a portion thereof, will be retained by IFMAR if either of the two (2) on-road electric events is adjudged, by the relative Executive Committee of IFMAR, to have been completed unsuccessfully.
Full document here: http://www.ifmar.org/pdf/rules/ifmar...neral_2011.pdf

While this is true. On-road isn't abundant over here. There are very very few tracks(maybe 5) who could hold a "Worlds". The first "nut" is actually 10k out of pocket to hold the race. You can then sell sponsor portions plus get entry fee's. A track would be lucky to break even.

I don't know of one asphalt on-road track that makes that kind of coin to throw out on one event. They would need to have a full hobby shop with a secondary or third way of income. Then even to ask someone to shell out 10k up front is a lot. After all is said and done it's not like you can promote the event to all due to the fact that you have a limited # of entries to qualify.

I don't know if that is what it is across the World. I just know that is the price in the US to play.

I am pretty sure that I can talk a track into it if the 10k did not have to come into play. If they could just hold it and make money doing it.
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Old 03-16-2013, 02:49 AM   #59
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The 2008 1/12th world championship was run on pavement in Thailand and Matsukura and Levanen had the race sewn up after the first round due to having unique Yokomo tyres that worked so much better than all the rest. After that you will find it hard to get drivers interested in travelling halfway round the world to a race meeting knowing you have no chance of doing well.
I keep reading the above about the Yokomo team with the secret foam combo's. This might be true for 2008 I don't know but the 2012 World Championshop Matsukura was also faster then any driver out there by a long way and this was on CARPET. From day 1 they set the fastests times which no one could even come close and this continued until the other drivers bought the same japanese tires that the Yokomo team was using. So it seems the notion that asphalt will have some big advantage for specific teams is not really holding up as they did the same trick on carpet.

Lets face it, yokomo has a good team and they probably make it a science of exploring every possibility at every angle. It would not surprise me if they had build the same track at yokomo HQ with the same carpet.
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:02 AM   #60
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Real racers race, that is it, irrespective of what and where. I raced dirt track motorcycles for many years, my home track was deco, i hated deco tracks and much preferred sump oil tracks, never missed a club meeting ever. Same if the stewards ask us if something is unsafe as we want it fixes, rubbish, just let me out there to race.

I have never seen so many primadonas and nancy boys in sport since i have started racing RC. Wont race this, wont race there, dont like that surface, mod is too fast, blaa blaa blaa. Just give me a car, on any track and i will race it. Dont care if it has cotton reels for wheels, I wont be complaining because the track has no traction compound on it.

My home track is a large asphalt track, we cannot use tire additive and the like because it is near a waterway and local environment laws. You know what, you make do with the available grip, because you have to.

Put the 1/12th on polished concrete with no sugar spray and sort out the men from the wanna bees.
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