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Old 02-14-2013, 10:48 AM   #16
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I keep my cars fully legal at all times other than not running a totally ROAR legal wing on my TCs. No one comes anywhere close to ROAR sized wings, unless they are actually at a ROAR race. I just trim to the lower line and my wing usually looks smaller than the wings on everyone else's cars. I don't know of any track around here that follows ROAR rules fully. Most still allow the D3.5, but I switched my 17.5 blinky car back to ReVtech, because I just don't want to hear anyone claim I won because of a "cheater motor".

Two of the tracks I go to, I'm sure everyone is at least very close to fully legal, but one of the tracks I go to has a bunch of newer guys that I don't think even realize their cars aren't really legal. It would be mainly not making minimum weight. When I was at the track the other day, I noticed that several cars were vastly under weight. Like >50g under. I have 78g added to mine in order for it to be just over the 1380g limit. I suspect some aren't running legal blinky software as well. Doesn't really affect the outcome of the races though. If they were better drivers, it would definitely make a difference and I would be far more adamant about them getting their cars up to code.

Bottom line, newbs cheating is kind of humorous. Veterans cheating is extremely lame. Either way though, I don't know how anyone can feel a sense of accomplishment if they cheat. It's stupid.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:27 AM   #17
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Deficient rules don't cause people to cheat, a deficiency of character does.

There is never a case when the root is in disorder and yet the branches are in order.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:50 AM   #18
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I've seen a few things over the years.

-Racers who play in the gray areas of the rules.
These type of racers justify that because it doesn't specifically say I can't do it in the rules, then it is okay. Many of these racers will feign ignorance when caught playing in the gray areas.

A good example is charging lipo batteries. They will interpret a rule that a battery can't exceed 8.4 volts (or 3.7 volts for 1 cell) as meaning they can charge to 8.499999 volts. They fully knew the intent of the rule was to not exceed 8.4000000 volts (for safety reasons which some will debate). They will justify their behavior by saying the rule only applies to 1 decimel point. This is the primary reason why rules have to be updated or clarified - racers looking for loop holes in rules rather than working on car setup.

I should add that I have no problem with someone pushing up to but not exceeding rules. This is what competitive people do. Just don't whine/whinge when your car doesn't pass tech on any given day, even though everyone else racing was able to adapt to the specific conditions at that event.


- Racers who selectively ignore rules because of no/lacking technical inspection
Sometimes this is because of ignorance, but normally it is done deliberately to gain some type of advantage. Examples of this are running boost when you should be in blinky, running a light car, running a car low/too close to the racing surface, and running equipment that looks legal but has been tweaked in some manner (such as running a tweaked silver can in a TCS class or running a tuner rotor when it is not allowed).

I have very little respect for this type of racer. Commonly you will hear the phrase, "If I didn't get caught, then it wasn't cheating." You will also hear, "Well ignoring <insert rule> isn't giving me an advantage, so it really isn't cheating."

Um, excuse me? Yes you were cheating.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:56 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
A good example is charging lipo batteries. They will interpret a rule that a battery can't exceed 8.4 volts (or 3.7 volts for 1 cell) as meaning they can charge to 8.499999 volts. They fully knew the intent of the rule was to not exceed 8.4000000 volts (for safety reasons which some will debate). They will justify their behavior by saying the rule only applies to 1 decimel point.
8.4999 however many digits you add is more than 8.4, that's just math(s).
8.41, 8.401, 8.400000000000001 are all more than 8.4. Anybody that thinks adding anything other than a zero anywhere after the 4 needs to go back to school.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:09 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by nashrcracer View Post
Deficient rules don't cause people to cheat, a deficiency of character does.

There is never a case when the root is in disorder and yet the branches are in order.
Well that does it for me. I can't even spell what nash said. No more cheating.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:30 PM   #21
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8.4999 however many digits you add is more than 8.4, that's just math(s).
8.41, 8.401, 8.400000000000001 are all more than 8.4. Anybody that thinks adding anything other than a zero anywhere after the 4 needs to go back to school.
Anyone who doesn't understand significant figures needs to go back to school.

ROAR deliberately specified only 1 decimal place to intentionally allow some margin for cheap, inaccurate chargers. Meaning anything up to 8.44999 is still legal. It's not a grey area, it's math. The rule was designed to work that way.

They did, however, change the rule to 8.40V because they didn't want people intentionally charging past 8.40. But that just means the new limit is 8.404999
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:38 PM   #22
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I work in engineering. You state a tolerance if you want a tolerance. I don't know of any company that would allow 8.4999 if 8.4 volts is specified.
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:52 PM   #23
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Well that does it for me. I can't even spell what nash said. No more cheating.
No one cares if you cheat when you never race.

Often no one will protest if someone is not legal and still placing in the back of the pack. Thats not to justify it, but just to show that clubs will often extend grace toward those who are below the learning curve. A few years ago when Chris Cooper was conducting races at the elementary school in Monteagle, about halfway through the day it gets mentioned that they are only allowing rubber tires in the tracks rules. So I blurt out, "Aw man. Why did you guys let me run foams and not say anything?" Heath pats me on the back and says, "Doc. Nobody gives a crap!"
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Old 02-14-2013, 12:52 PM   #24
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The responses to battery voltage illustrate playing in the gray area. If you think the intent was to only allow up to but not exceed 8.4, you battery will never be over 8.4. Some will think the intent is to allow variance and anything up to but not exceeding 8.49999999. Does .09999 voltage matter in onroad? Probably not. But offer that .099999 to an oval racer and they will gladly use it.

My original point is that some racers will choose to play in the gray EVEN when they know what the intent of the specific rule is. I consider this cheating because everyone else understood the intent and didn't exceed the intent of the rule. If they didn't think it was giving them an advantage (real or imagined), they wouldn't play there.

The reason I have no respect for people who play in the gray areas is because they are selfish and never consider how their actions affect everyone else in the class they are participating in. You know you are racing with someone like this when they say something like, "Racing is expensive. If you aren't willing to spend the money to compete, then you should be doing something else." That's because they are buying/using everything they can whether legal or not to win.

</end rant>.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:09 PM   #25
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In spec classes, the only people that can win by cheating are the people that could win without it.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:14 PM   #26
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I work in engineering. You state a tolerance if you want a tolerance. I don't know of any company that would allow 8.4999 if 8.4 volts is specified.
Good thing I didn't say 8.4999 then.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:16 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
The responses to battery voltage illustrate playing in the gray area. If you think the intent was to only allow up to but not exceed 8.4, you battery will never be over 8.4. Some will think the intent is to allow variance and anything up to but not exceeding 8.49999999. Does .09999 voltage matter in onroad? Probably not. But offer that .099999 to an oval racer and they will gladly use it.

My original point is that some racers will choose to play in the gray EVEN when they know what the intent of the specific rule is. I consider this cheating because everyone else understood the intent and didn't exceed the intent of the rule. If they didn't think it was giving them an advantage (real or imagined), they wouldn't play there.

The reason I have no respect for people who play in the gray areas is because they are selfish and never consider how their actions affect everyone else in the class they are participating in. You know you are racing with someone like this when they say something like, "Racing is expensive. If you aren't willing to spend the money to compete, then you should be doing something else." That's because they are buying/using everything they can whether legal or not to win.

</end rant>.
It's simply not a grey area, it's black and white as can be. Also, you seem to be conflating the "intent" of the rule with what you wish the rule was. ROAR has explicitly stated that the original intent of the 8.4V rule was to allow some margin for cheap chargers going a bit too high.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:26 PM   #28
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Interesting that this subject always seems to pop up in the electric forums but hardly ever in the nitro forums.

The problem with electric racing is that its too short. It doesn't allow for factors like attrition to set in which happens all the time in real car racing as well as in nitro. Start having 10min. mains and you'll see all the cheat factors start to drop off where real racing skills start to prevail.
Keep all that dirt/grime and ride height adjustment to yourself.
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:05 PM   #29
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@Steve,
I don't know the ROAR rule book, please consider that this is an international forum. If it had been categorically stated that the rule says 1 decimal place then I wouldn't have bothered posting tbh.

From the outside looking in, that rule is asking to be bent. Funnily enough, the 2012 rule here was 8.44v and has changed to 8.40v, there is no tolerance stated.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:05 PM   #30
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I've only been using Novak gtb esc's& motor in blinky racing to stay clear of any accusations. I also don't touch the original stator, but I am planning on trying a 12.5mm rotor.... Most racers do laugh at my setup, but I wonder whether it's because I have no way to bend the rules and they do.... In any case, I feel at peace with myself and twice as happy when I beat them regardless... It's not easy to make a Novak motor race those d3.5's , but it's rewarding when you finally pull it off...
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