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Old 01-19-2013, 07:39 AM   #1
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Default starting from zero in 1/12: here is our story

Hello,

the goal of this topic is to share our progression in 1/12 considering we are 100% beginners in this category. We never ran onroad but we race in 1/10 and 1/8 electric offroad since three years.

The 1/12 topic is 2600 pages, and it can be hard to find a sum up of all infos needed.

So here is what we began with. Everything was bought used in new or like new condition.

Setup 1:

Associated 12R5.2 (link)
HW 1S ESC
Futaba S9650 servo
GM 10.5 motor
Blackart 005 body

Setup 2:

Corally SP12X (t-bar)
HW 1S ESC
Futaba s9650 servo
LRP X11 10.5 motor
AMR12 body

Radio: 2x Sanwa M11X with RX451 receivers
Lipos: 4x Orion 6400 90C, 1x SMC 6000, 1xCRC 5400
Tires: used magenta in the front, pink in the rear





Associated 12R5.2


Corally SP12X


Here is the track were we will begin, it's a small indoor technical carpet track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d4A7e1w9Xc

We will be alone with my girlfriend running 12th scale so everything we learn is coming from the internet. We want to prove it's possible to start from basically nothing, with no race or local driver to help and just progress via personnal practice and sharing with other drivers via internet. It might take more time but if we can do it, everybody will be able to do it.

So how did we choose the cars and electronics?

First, my girlfriend fell in love with the SP12X US Edition that someone on oople wanted to sell for a really low price. This is a t-bar car, not meant for lipo but we will adapt it. It has already been done.
Then I bought a XTi for cheap on ebay. It's new like the Corally. But I discovered it has not much room for the electronics so I went for a 12R5.2 (used also but like new).
The ESC were found on ebay and a local forum. I wanted the best ESC for the price with an integrated booster so the Hobbywing was my choice.
The S9650 are both new and came with the 12R5.2. They are considered like a very good value for the price and are a proven basis.
Concerning the LRP I had it previously on my Cougar SV and the GM 10.5 came with the 12R5.2. All the used tires also, as well as the lipos and BA005 bodies you see on the picture.
For the Sanwa radios/ receivers we had them already.

This is a "learning by doing" project so we will give the needed infos when we discover them and not start from the theory this time.

I will do and explain my choices after. That means the error will be part of the game and considered as the basis of our knowledge.

Of course this is supposed to be an interactive project so any suggestion, criticism, or question is welcome.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:54 AM   #2
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http://richardchang.com/hobby.php?topic=112setup
Helped me loads when I started
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:55 AM   #3
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Very cool Pulse, good luck to you both. 1/12th scale is a great scale. There is some good reading that you will get directed to when RedBull Fix gets here. Myself and others will help if we can so ask away when you need help.

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Old 01-19-2013, 08:02 AM   #4
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see you are running anticlockwise ,not the norm in the Uk and other parts of Europe.Toblerone trackmarks also a no no as they launch 1/12th cars.
TBar car Mmmmm Great choice with R5.2 though.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:14 AM   #5
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Thanks, we appreciate any help. I had a good support on the dedicated 1/12th thread already so I thank everybody.

There are some links that were very usefull indeed:

http://www.brca.org/?q=sections/subs...-articles/1144
http://www.rctech.net/forum/californ...ll-so-cal.html
http://www.richardchang.com/hobby/rc...12_summary.pdf


gearing:
http://www.gearchart.com/index.cfm?f...n=chart.create

RCvetran: there is nothing reasonnable running 1/12th as a first category in onroad with no local help, on a track that isn't dedicated for it and a t-bar but we know it. It might appear we are looking for troubles, but we like challenges!

Last time we had the same experience was three years ago when electric 1/8 buggies were quite rare. Nobody ran electric at our track and we decided to convert two nitro buggies and see how it goes. We even did a 10h endurance with minimum equipment just a few months after we started. All went up very well!
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:22 AM   #6
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Tires info:

"REAR COMPOUNDS

For carpet racing, there are basically only 3 compounds of rear tyre worth worrying about. They are as follows

Yellow – 30 shore US foam
The softest of the three suggested compounds. Usually makes the rear end of the car feel ‘stuck’ to*
the track. Often good when the grip is high, contrary to logic which would suggest that it’s soft shore*
would make it good in low grip conditions. Good for drivers who like the car to feel safe and easy to*
drive. However, yellows are prone to chunking since they are very soft, and their low rubber content*
means they aren’t as tough as JAP foam. Yellows have become less popular since the introduction of*
link style cars. They used to be the tyre of choice on t-bar cars, but it seems that JAP foam is more*
suited to link cars. An alternative to yellows are oranges; these are yellows with a grey (35 shore US
foam) outer ring (grey-low for CRC tyres). The hard outer ring usually gives a bit more steering, but*
also strengthens the tyre somewhat to help prevent chunking.



Pink – 30 shore JAP foam
The softest of the JAP compounds. Pinks tend to free up the rear end of the car and give it more*
steering than yellows. Usually the tyre of choice for club racing or in low grip conditions; you will see*
most of the top drivers running pink rears on the Saturday morning of a national meeting. Pinks are*
quite tough and are less prone to chunking than yellows, but are soft enough to provide reasonable*
levels of grip.*


Magenta – 32 shore JAP foam
Magentas are basically harder pinks! They don’t always give more steering than pinks, but they are*
definitely harder wearing. Drivers will often switch from pink to magenta rears if they experience a*
loss of rear grip in the final two minutes of a race when running pinks. The fact that magentas are*
harder means they are the least prone to chunking of the three tyres suggested for the rear. These*
are currently the rear tyre of choice for most link car drivers.*


Racer’s Choice*
“If you’re a regular club racer then pink rears will be your safest bet, but for the higher grip of a*
national you may find magentas to be the preferred choice. Different cars and drivers prefer different
tyres, but I will usually run a JAP compound on the rear whenever I can as they are harder wearing*
and less prone to chunking. With the move to 1S li-po and link cars, I have found myself using yellow*
rears less and less frequently. This isn’t a bad thing, as the fact they are softer means they aren’t as*
tough and they go gummy more quickly as a result of repeated additive application. This isn’t such a*
problem with pinks and magentas.” – Mark Stiles Front Compounds

FRONT COMPOUNDS

Purple – 40 shore JAP foam

Purple fronts always used to be the base setting tyre for 1/12
th scale racing. However, this was back*
when the cars were heavier and we used different additive. The current cars are over 100g lighter*
than their predecessors and this has a massive effect on the weight distribution and balance of the*
car. For competitive racing, purples are just too hard to be useful now!
*


Lilac – 38 shore JAP foam
Lilacs, while softer than purples, are still pretty damn hard! If you like a really safe car then they
might be an option, but you’re not going to be winning any A finals with them fitted. They are*
obviously hard wearing, so might be worth considering if you’re going club racing and want a tyre*
you can get lots of runs from or run a few times in a day. Also consider lilacs if you have come from*
other classes and are not used to driving such responsive cars.
*

2x Pink – 35 shore JAP foam
Double pinks are a middle ground, and are probably what have replaced purples as the base setting*
tyre for the front of the car. They tend to give the car a neutral to slight under steer feel, which is*
ideal for most drivers, especially those looking for a consistent and easy to drive setup.


Magenta – 32 shore JAP foam
The front tyre of choice for most of the top drivers. Magentas make for a car with lots of mid corner*
steering, and will usually return the quickest lap times for top level drivers. They give a nice balance*
and feel through the corner without making the car become snatchy or unpredictable. They may*
however give too much front end for the average Joe (particularly at low speed), making 2x pinks a*
better choice for the majority.*



Pink – 30 shore JAP foam
The softest front tyre available. Used mostly on tight, twisty tracks where a very front-endy car is*
desired. They do have a tendency to peel away from the rims easily though and they wear very*
quickly too. If you want loads of front end then go ahead, but they aren’t for the faint hearted!*


Black – 35 shore US foam
Blacks are 35 shore, but made from a different kind of foam than double pinks. They suffer less with*
a problem known as ‘pickup’ – when the track is really grippy and the tyres go sticky during a run,*
often causing grip roll to occur. Blacks are therefore sometimes useful in very high grip conditions.*
Sometimes a good choice on duo carpet at nationals where grip roll can become a problem."
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:45 PM   #7
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thanks for the outline on tires! now i know what to order for next season. i typically run crc grey/black tires for our 17.5 boost class as its what the club director carries, but we got new carpet so this might change.

ive think from your various other posts about 12th scale your working yourself up too much for it lol.
i thought it would be tricky after my very first touring car season but really, its been the most trouble free, skill building class ive ever run so far.

i dont really fiddle with the setup of the car that much. i built it so it was responsive enough and easy to drive. this was pretty much close to kit settings with a few tweaks to oils and the like.otherwise i leave the thing alone unless something needs service. id say dif maintenance is the most important though, and how tight you build it. typicalyl you dont want it any tighter than being able to hold it and not crack it loose with your hands.

tighter, and you will spinout, a lot. ha.

i say it a lot to people just starting out at our track but success comes easily if you just build the car to manual spec and drive it. you might need to add camber/toe and of course figure out your tire choice but soft tires and a safe setup will make it much easier to get into how twitchy these cars are.

of course, i dont run modified. so what do i know, but i find stock classes will really show off driving skill more than anything. you dont have the speed to make up for bad driving.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:33 PM   #8
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You're welcome for the tires, I found this article very informative.

Hearing about other's experience beginning 12th doesn't sound as hard as I thought at first. We will take the time needed, I'm thinking about this class since quite a long time so to me it's worth the effort. I'll follow your advice about beginning with a stable setup and drive, drive and drive. The main reasn why I didn't feel so confident is about the tires that demand to adapt the gearing etc.. I'm not used to it coming from offroad. This said the diff is also very important in 1/10 2wd buggy.

Here is another article about the bodies, thanks to Rober_K. I just added the pics. I will have to search were I found everything again to give the credits to the right authors:

"BA002 - R8C = Isn't that aggressive. Yes it has a lot of steering. And yes it has a lot of rotation. And I think it rotates the hardest of all bodies. But does not have an "initial high bite", like the BA004 does. Yes it holds a lot of corner speed, but I think that's because of the high rotation. This body normally is mounted like a extreme wedge. And does do good in Both Modified and Stock, but is mostly seen in Stock.



BA003 - R10 = This was an awesome boy for NIMH Racing. For Lipo I think it’s terrible. It looks wonderful, but feels like it has no rear grip, and lifts the inside wheel pretty fast (but I've not tested a lot with Lipo and this body). For NIMH it was almost the only body we where driving.



BA004 - Bomb R = This body has a lot of initial steering, but also a lot of lateral grip. I think it's a body that drives pretty easy, but is loosing some corner speed due the high initial steering it gives you. The body does do well in stock cause of the "grippy" feel it gives. This one is also seen in both modified in stock, but mostly in stock.



BA005 - Mohawk = I've also not tested this a lot with this one, but it feels like it's easier then all his older Black Art brothers. Will come back on this one.



Protoform - AMR This is a cool body. I think it has a progressive steering curve. On high speed it doesn't have that much steering, and therefore looks like it doesn't have that much initial steering. But when slowing down, it starts to generate more and more steering. So due the "low" initial steering it doesn't tent to grip roll and keeps a lot of corner speed. I think it's really easy body that's suits a lot of tracks from high to low grip, but can feel a bit "under steered" compared to the Black Art family.



Parma - Speed 8HD = This one feels really like the Protoform AMR, but has more of a linear steering Curve. It has a little bit more initial, on high speed compared to the AMR, but has a little les steering on low speed compared to the AMR. This is a really good body for Modified on grippy tracks because it feels like it keeps a lot of corner speed. But I then again this body will also give you the "under steered" feeling, a thiny bit more then the AMR compared to the Black Art family.



What you also need to keep in mind. The Black Art bodies are really really light and there for really thin Lexan. They tent to crack pretty easy. I always reinforce my bodies at the front with some extra lexan or tape. Parma has the thickest bodies and have a really long lifetime, but are heavy. Protoform is just a bit in between. (Parma and PF do both have Light Weight bodies, these are also thin)

Then again all of this is just a feeling, just my feeling and can feel a lot different to other drivers. I've tested a lot of these bodies back to back with other drivers, and we all came to almost the same feeling, but maybe us European racers are just strange"


Concerning the gearing I'll begin with a roll-out of 55mm to 60mm for the technical track I mentioned earlier. I'll be using the 10.5 in blinky mode with the "No Timing 508_V3" software from hobbywing. From what I read 16AWG wires should be enough so I'll go for it to install the electronics.

I try to be as precise as I can considering I was asking myself these questions
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:38 PM   #9
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the black market was nice for 10.5 boost but i ended up going back to the r8c for pretty much all my 12th scale business.
you forgot to mention the speed 12b. that one shows up quite a bit too.

i dont know what it was about the blackmarket but it would rub somthing feirce on the inside of the front wheels, which would spin me out. of course, its the quasimoto of the bunch for sure. buuuutttt ugly.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:49 PM   #10
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Protoform speed 2B



"Originally designed as a body specifically for the ultra-fast modified class, it was not "always" optimum for the Stock, Masters, and 19Turn classes even though it gained numerous championships there as well.Due to requests from racers, PROTOform is now proud to release the Speed 12B on-road body. This body has been carefully refined for use in classes other than modified, and features improved efficiency and slightly reduced downforce. However, in the right circumstance, this body will be a "racers edge" for the pro-driver running in mod. The rear spoiler features unique "twin gurney flap" add-ons for adding rear bite and handling balance. This adjustability will make it a favorite in "outdoor" racing in all the 1/12th classes including Mod.The Speed 12B is available in .020 lexan and has a protective film to aid the painting process. This body is sure to continue PROTOform winning tradition in 1/12th scale! Features: · Light durable .020 lexan with paint-n-peel protective film· Efficient "medium downforce" design· Optimized performance for Stock, Masters & 19Turn classes· Low center of gravity· Twin add-on "gurney flaps" "

Is there any less commercial description out there? A good thing to know is about the thickness of the bodies. The parma is the thickest then comes the Protoform and the lasts are the black art.

Here is a good start for the diff:
http://www.teamirsrc.com/techtips.html
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:04 PM   #11
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hehe, nice to see my body text.

I've tested a bit more and it feels like the BA005 gives the fastest lap times. It has the most down-force of them all, and just really stable with a lot of steering. The Speed 12(b) feels like NO Grip. I really dislike the body.

I must say I have had the best teacher. F. Heinsbroek told me a lot about the 12th scale class and took me to a lot of races. I think you can learn A LOT from the Interwebs, but still. Feeling and some details are hard to find on the internet.

Still Pulse_, If you need any advice, or come to Holland to race, give me a PM.

Regards Robert
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valk View Post
thanks for the outline on tires! now i know what to order for next season. i typically run crc grey/black tires for our 17.5 boost class as its what the club director carries, but we got new carpet so this might change.
Note that these are Jaco Colors, not CRC colors. CRC is different then Jaco/Parma/Mobgum.

Regards Robert
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:18 PM   #13
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Grey is also a commonly used rear tire on carpet. Orange got popular for awhile (Yellow tire with a harder ring around the outside) but I haven't heard people talk about it for a bit.

Speed8 HD used to be my favorite body handling wise...it just felt really good. I went away from it for a bit when the AMR came out and also tried the CRC R8C. Both are great bodies as well. I just got another Speed 8 HD and CRC R8C so I'll be trying them sided by side to see if what I remember about the Speed 8 HD is still true.
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_K View Post
hehe, nice to see my body text.

I've tested a bit more and it feels like the BA005 gives the fastest lap times. It has the most down-force of them all, and just really stable with a lot of steering. The Speed 12(b) feels like NO Grip. I really dislike the body.

I must say I have had the best teacher. F. Heinsbroek told me a lot about the 12th scale class and took me to a lot of races. I think you can learn A LOT from the Interwebs, but still. Feeling and some details are hard to find on the internet.

Still Pulse_, If you need any advice, or come to Holland to race, give me a PM.

Regards Robert
You were the one for the bodies , I added the credits to you. Many thanks!

We will be happy to meet other 12th scale drivers if we have this opportunity! Internet can't replace meeting other racers of course but that's all what we have now. We want to make more people drive 1/12 too, including non onroad specialists. Drivers need to see some 12th scale to consider buying one. I feel quite concerned about the beginners and kids too so if one driver starts to drive 12th scale because he sees one of our car, another could follow etc.. Sharing and fun is what the hobby is about
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:34 PM   #15
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By the way, you've posted the Speed 8 (non HD) body pic,
The HD version looks like this:


It has to flaps in the rear, different cockpit and turbulent air bobbles at the front wheel arches.

They do have a different feel in driving. But not much.

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