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Old 07-11-2006, 08:28 PM   #4621
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Hmm........where to start....where to start.....

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Originally Posted by DA_cookie_monst
Do you realy think that, once we start using LiPo, companies like Team Orion, won't find ways of eeking extra money out for 'special' packs.
Its quite possible that they will. But it will take some kind of advance in LiPo technology that we don't have access to yet. Because as it stands right now, there isn't much they or we can do to make one LiPo pack much different than another.

So perhapes one day LiPo will be as bad a NiMH is now, but it aint today.

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I am not against moving forward, but until the trickle down to club of chargers and ESC's designed with LiPo in mind, then I don't want them legal. A LiPo pack, when it lets go, it LETS GO.
You lost me here. There are several LiPo chargers availible on the market as is. Including the best 'bang for buck' charger perhapes ever in the Duratrax ICE. And the companies that don't already have a LiPo charger are working on either upgrades for current chargers or new ones.

As for the ESC's, every esc on the market works just fine with LiPo cells. So I'm not sure what you mean...

And for the favorite subject of LiPo detractors....the "LET GO". I don't know how many times this can be repeated, "these are not the old school LiPos that airplane guys used to blow up". These are the same LiPo cells that Kokam are planning on using in full sized cars. Which tells me that Kokam is quite certain of their safety or they wouldn't sell them, and Orion certainly wouldn't. When I run and charge mine side by side with old school NiMH packs, I'm alot more worried about the NiMH than I am the LiPo.

But, hey if your so worried about chargers, esc's, and "letting go", theres nothing saying that the detractors can't simply keep using NiMH cells. I just don't want people who are afraid of change holding everyone else back.
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:49 PM   #4622
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Old 07-11-2006, 11:09 PM   #4623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid
From what I have read on the Platinum thread, Orion may already be working on the fit issue for cars. On the other side of that, there are some companies which are working on alternate bulkheads that will fit the current LiPo packs.

New bulkheads due out in 2 weeks!!!!!! Gotcha!

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Old 07-11-2006, 11:18 PM   #4624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab
I think you guys must think I'm slow and always losing at my local club races and TCS. That is not the case. I was almost always in the A-Main for Spec. I know all the chassis tricks for the TL-01 and TT-01, and I'm a decent driver. You guys seem to be missing my point, which means you have gone to the trouble of finding the best motors and tweaking them. And I am certainly am a "have", meaning, if I wanted to, I could buy the best batteries, and find the best motors and get them zapped and tweaked and dyno'ed, etc et al. But Spec is suppose to be about everyone being equal and letting the driving do the talking, not the person with the deepest pockets. I also think it's weak that A LOT of racers sandbag in Spec just to win when they should have moved on to GT1 long ago. A kid with a new TT-01 or TL-01 kit fresh out of the box should have a chance to win too, but not with the sandbaggers. The best driver will win over any motor (within reason), but a great driver with a "miracle motor" that laps the entire field by two laps is just ridiculous.

Just my 2 cents. Agree or disagree.

Handout silver cans is the ONLY way to level the playing field. Period.

Scarab
Spec racing is ALWAYS the most expensive form of racing. Spec also does not mean equal. That's why it's Spec and not cost controlled racing. If I know how to get an extra couple hundred RPM out of a mabuchi than what you know, that means I am rewarded for my research, experimentation, and experience. I didn't learn what I know over night and there's still plenty more for me to learn. There are some who, like me, run GT3 at a regionals because its the only time of year that we can run a Mabuchi motor class. That's one of the reason's why the SoCal guys have gotten so fast with them...they started a Mabuchi class at SoCal raceway. If there was a viable option, I'd take it, but since there isn't that's my choice. There's been a discussion in the TCS racing thread about revamping the Spec class, making GT3 more of a stepping stone class up from spec and take the guys out (Like myself, Doc and Steve Hickman, Chris, Jeff, and others) and do like a GT3-Pro class, or something for the more skilled drivers. There isn't such a class now so we get thrown in with the kid who's only run 1-2 races before with a TA-05 and can't run Spec.

Also, you seem to be dwelling on motor zappers. I think if you'd look and what people are doing, zapping the motors isn't one of them. Yeah, there may be 2-3 people who are zapping mabuchi's, but generally speaking that HURTS performance. The motor doesn't have enough power to overcome the stronger magnets. That's one of the reasons why the Reedy motors run so hot...the motor lugs to overcome the strength in the magnets.

If you want to see some of the fastest drivers with Mabuchi's, come to Nationals. I guarantee the same guys who are fast around the country with their gear are going to be just as fast with the handouts. And you mention that you could buy the big batteries and all... That just tells me you're not now which means you're at a voltage disadvantage. Anytime you're horsepower limited, voltage will make a huge difference, you gotta see that. And if someone is lapping the field twice in Spec (not GT3), then it's the RACE DIRECTOR'S responsibility to move that driver out of Spec and into GT3!
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:39 AM   #4625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid
Because as it stands right now, there isn't much they or we can do to make one LiPo pack much different than another.
Thats not what I heard.... Start to look for matched packs when they are legalized in a few years....
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:57 AM   #4626
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Gary.....some good insight for others to think about....just remember that alot of people are looking for setup help and you are a book of knowledge here and alot of help to others....dont let them get you upset.

Thanks for your help...

Kevin
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:38 AM   #4627
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Not wishing to get a flame war, but no matter what we say, the cell manufacturers will still find a way of grading LiPo cells. I don't have a problem with the Team Orion cell, as it is encased and has built in voltage protection. Some of the NEW ESC's have LiPo detection but I can garauntee you that 95% of ESC's in use, don't.

So, we have someone who buys a basic LiPo pack from eBay, chucks it in his XYZ car with a budget ESC, whizzes round for ages, doesn't realise about the minimum votage issue with LiPo, LiPo swells then goes bang, very quickly.... imagine that at the club.

And yes, I have seen question, 'can I charge LiPo on me XXX brand charger' because they think they can.

I am not afraid of change, but when an item needs a whole set of new parameters for other items, I think it is best waited for, for a couple of years, so the technology trickles down.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:24 AM   #4628
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Could somebody please fill me in on this cheatin'-with-a-Mubuchi-motor stuff? Sure does sound a lot easier than what I've been going through.

I'm kind of tired of having to completely go through my drivetrain before every TCS Regional just to make sure it's as free as possible...and devise a way to equalize stick packs as effectively as a side by side...and take all of the shields off of my bearings...and experiment with tire and insert and prep methods to shave off another half tenth per lap...and figure out which is the most aerodynamic body...and the most efficient way to wire the lowest-resistance ESC I can find...

I mean, hey, if all I have to do is cheat with the motor, well, I'd sure get a lot more sleep at night!
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:44 AM   #4629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lbckevin
Gary.....some good insight for others to think about....just remember that alot of people are looking for setup help and you are a book of knowledge here and alot of help to others....dont let them get you upset.

Thanks for your help...

Kevin
Kevin, you know as others who know me know if someone asks me for help, I'll provide it. This is not going to "Sound nice" but Scarab just comes off on here (one of the problems with online forums is not being able to hear intonation and inflection) as someone who's whining because he got motored. If you want help, ask. If you're going to accuse someone of cheating, present your opinions or facts. But as someone who's been accused of cheating in the past (then handed that person my motor out of the car for them to run and they admit it's nothing special) this is a very touchy subject. Not this last year but in 2005 at the Trackside TCS, Doc Mertes wanted to run my chassis and equipment in the 3rd A of GT3 (I won the first 2). He admitted the motor was nothing special...overall speed was nothing special...but the car just rolled thru the corners. I've never felt my GT3 cars have been particularially fast, but others watching it tell me it flies. Not trying to start a flame war, but dude, present your evidence that someone was cheating or drop it.

Doc...nice
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Old 07-12-2006, 08:48 AM   #4630
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In the Canadian TCS, silver cans for the Mini class can't go over 1.3A at 2V on a motor tester.. they usually do .8A new, and some have had to go and buy a new silver can because it went over, often because it is broken in too well (overdid the water dipping).. Any kind of zapping or advancing the timing would put the numbers way over as well.

In the finals we do get handout motors (a perk, but then again our races up to the finals aren't free), and everyone's busy water-dipping the silver-can brushes flat down to the comm. It's sometimes the un-luck of the draw if you get a motor that can't keep it below the amp limit, most do, though.. the more brush touching the comm, the better, and then that's it! It's all down to the driving, and they don't mess around, as you've probably noticed in the North American finals, you'll see a Canadian up on the podium for a few classes.. they're fast because they're consistent, don't crash, and know how to carry momentum through the corners, allowing them to gear to the limits. If anyone's used a black-can (we do in GT2), they don't last long at all, and need a gentle throttle to keep from burning out.

Plus, the "winners always have the newest batteries" argument didn't hold for last year's GT2 winner, using older 3000 cells over 3700's, did it not?

I have 4 current 2-hole silver cans, 1 4-hole, which is much faster but is still legal, and this old mabuchi (got it from an old Baja Champ deal) with 2 big holes, and is ballistic! It's literally at black-can levels.. Waaay not legal ([email protected]), and does 22,500RPM/2.1A at 7.2V in my APS.. Crazy fun to drive in the mini! Does anyone know why this one is so much faster? Is there any way Tamiya could change suppliers again and get something like this? It would certainly make things more interesting and fun..
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:17 AM   #4631
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I hear ya Gary. Same reason i felt compelled to post. Ive been accused of cheating also. Again i gave my motor up, and blitzed the accuser with his own motor. With both motors out, i spun the wheel on the two chassis, mega difference in friction, and that was all it was out on the track.

This isnt just for spec classes also. One of my mates here got accused of cheating in 19t, when he almost out qualified half the mod field times lol. Ive seen his cars, and i assured everyone, it didnt matter what motor you put in that chassis, it will be lightning fast. It was a Pro 4, and its was smmmoooooth. He spent crazy amounts of hours getting the meshes etc just perfect. The guy also raced with a 2PL radio, which threw the 'i need a $600 radio to be fast' argument out the window... Theres also one other component that i dont think was brought up, natural talent. Some of us have it and some of us will keep spending money to make up for the lack of it lol. But be careful when shouting 'cheater!'.

Id much rather complain about the guys who have more time to work on their cars than me! lol
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:29 AM   #4632
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Wow this thread went off the deep end...

I have seen both sides of the debate. I have been on the side where I refused to ever run Mabuchi style motors again for TCS racing. I rallied along the lines of cheating, guys with cases of mabuchis, unfair and whatever other voodoo could be done to the motors.

What brought me back was my budget and expense. I wanted something more affordable and hopefully something that was more fitting to my driving style. At the end of last year I decided to step down from GT1 and try GT3. Before I threw in a motor into my car to start testing I bought 5 motors, did a TON of research and a TON of bench testing. The secret to these motors is breakin time. Doc spends about a week breaking in his, my time usually is 5 1/2 to 6 hours.

I wish I could say the secret was what I do to my motors. . . in fact it is everything else that I do apart from my motors. I have even gone as far as to match my TA05 bearings and weed out the slower ones. I believe attention to details is a big part for a fast mabuchi car.

I am looking forward to the Nats in Aug. In order to get ready I have bought black canned motors and have been doing testing with them on and off the track. Regardless I expect to do well with or without the handout motors and/or batteries, mainly because of my time invested in pre-race testing and getting ready.

Actually for the TCS NA Finals there is talk about dynoing the handout motors to weed out the "cheaters". I happily welcome that because I am not cheating.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:53 AM   #4633
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First of all, I'm really holding my arguement to TCS Spec class. GT3 is kind of a "run what you brung" type class, so these tweaked motors are fine in my book. Secondly, my vision of SPEC, and I'm pretty sure it was Tamiya's vision too, is a way to get kids who buy a box kit, to build it and run it at TCS. I'm guilty of running in SPEC when I was better than most. My intention wasn't to accuse anyone of anything, but simply to point out that I think handout silver cans should be used to level the playing field, allowing driving to prevail over motor power and/or batteries.

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Old 07-12-2006, 10:00 AM   #4634
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scarab, then if it for kids, why have you been racing in spec for so many years, making all these amains, and never stepped up to GT?
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Old 07-12-2006, 10:01 AM   #4635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab
This is why I'm vehemently opposed to Tamiya Silver Can TCS racing. What a cheaters paradise that is!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab

Handout Silver Cans is the only way to level the playing field for people who don't have the resources to cheat with their silver cans.

Scarab
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab
My intention wasn't to accuse anyone of anything
Those are your words my friend...
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