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Old 03-29-2005, 02:27 PM   #226
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I completely agree with you Rick. The last Stock Ifmar worlds was in 1985. They figured it out early.

Something interesting, NORRCA hands out a Novice national championship.
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Old 03-29-2005, 03:15 PM   #227
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What if each company sent ROAR a driver roster at the end of each quarter. Then ROAR decides what classes a driver will be able to run in accordingly to their experience and financial support. i.e. full sponsorships in mod or 19t and minor in stock. Then we have a sportsman class for each mod, 19, and stock. This way, a factory driver doesn't compete with privateers or noobies in the stock class.
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Old 03-29-2005, 03:24 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Hohwart
This is exactly what should happen. Also eliminate stock as a national championship class in all disciplines.
***shock and dismay***
You've got to be kidding, right?

The whole idea of altering the system to promote racer progression is very good. But you can't simply eliminate stock national championship status. Lesser talented racers need incentive to keep progressing. Changing the system so that they couldn't aspire toward a national championship in stock class (which everyone knows is not the best driver in the land) would not accomplish the stepping stone agenda of TJ's suggestion.

I agree with the sugesstion TJ made, but lets not get carried away with deeming a single class worthy of the moniker 'Champion'.
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Old 03-29-2005, 04:13 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Hohwart
This is exactly what should happen. Also eliminate stock as a national championship class in all disciplines. And maybe even 19t.

Give the Nationals the prestige of a World Championship by determining the single BEST driver and leave it at that. Then individual accomplishment can be awarded from among the finishers (highest finishing privateer, sportsman, Over-40, junior, etc.).
Rick Has it Right!!!!
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Old 03-29-2005, 04:53 PM   #230
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Deriving a working system is so incredibly simple. If I could do it, here is how it would be:

Two divisions, amateur and professional (along with a possible masters division).

Hand out two national championships, one for each.

Drivers have a rating that is based on a formula for wins, finishing order, strength of competition, and so on (think NASCAR points mixed with the BCS, or maybe something like a QB rating). Everything is calculated by computer.

Any driver may choose to declare himself or herself as a professional, but may not run in the amateur class for a year from the date they file as a pro.

Any driver in the amateur class who has completed a particular minumum number of races and has a rating at or beyond a certain level at the end of the year MUST declare as a professional for the next season/year.

The professional class uses ANY modified motor, no turn limit, brushless is allowed but existing restrictions on brushed motors are lifted. The idea is, you can go as fast as you want to go. Period. Luckily we don't have to worry about safety as they do in other full size racing, where there needs to be a speed cap.

The amateur class uses stock or 19T handout motors, up to the choice of the venue and/or sponsors of the event. No brushless. Existing rules, for the most part, should apply.

An optional rule (that exists in other sports): any driver receiving cash or salary from one or more sponsors must race as a professional. Could get iffy though, since we don't disclose the financials in the industry.

Use the points in each division to create a more fair qualifying system. There are a number of ways to do this; this would be my idea.

Four rounds of qualifying at a National event.

Rounds #1 and #2 (day one) are seeded by driver ranking.

Round #3 (day two) is a TRULY random sort (not like the pseudo-random ones we get at some venues).

Round #4 is resorted based on the fastest times from rounds 1-3.

Qual points are assigned for each round with a 0 for TQ, 2 for 2nd, etc, just like now. The best two of four rounds are used (counting ALL the rounds, not separating by day). Thus, consistency is rewarded.

Under this system, drivers get a good shot at a clean heat, but unseeded or new drivers still have a chance at a couple of clean heats. Obviously it favors the regulars, but...that's how it's supposed to be!

This obviously also requires a strong race directing team and a solid scoring software, both of which should be automatic requirements at ANY event ANYWHERE.

Anyway, wouldn't this be nice? I know I'd love it. And it would give people something to shoot for, that's attainable. Get that rating up!
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Last edited by futureal; 03-29-2005 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 03-29-2005, 05:06 PM   #231
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I’d like to say a few things:

First of all, if it is thought winning a stock race should go unearned, why even have the class… Why should I as a stock racer show up to compete in a class where the best I can hope to achieve is controlled practice?

As for those in Stock who are sponsored and fill up the A-mains, I’m glad they continue to do so. They ensure that those who make the A-main at a large event, who don’t on a regular basis, are definitely worthy. I don’t mind if there are a few people who run stock until they can’t run period anymore. They make for competition, and they make winning much more fulfilling. Let’s face it, no one person can win them all anyway.

Unless you are truly gifted with the talent it takes to immediately jump to modified, you need stock to serve as a springboard to modified. The stronger that springboard is, the better off you’ll be in modified.

For people in the lower mains, you shouldn’t use lack of sponsorship to serve as an excuse. Sponsored drivers are sponsored because they are good drivers; they do not become good drivers because they are sponsored. They achieved their position through practice, not placing blame on equipment.

The first big race I attended was the 2002 US Indoor Champs in Cleveland, OH. I made the D main in stock 12th, and when I watched the A Main, my first thought wasn’t “Man, these guys have such better equipment than me and are keeping me out of the A-Main.” What I thought to myself was “These guys are really good drivers, maybe if I practice more I’ll make the A-Main someday.”

Finally, if you disagree with that, know this: if your car contacts anything other than the carpet during your qualifier, it’s not the equipment.
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Old 03-29-2005, 05:10 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally posted by futureal
Deriving a working system is so incredibly simple. If I could do it, here is how it would be:

Two divisions, amateur and professional (along with a possible masters division).

Hand out two national championships, one for each.

Drivers have a rating that is based on a formula for wins, finishing order, strength of competition, and so on (think NASCAR points mixed with the BCS, or maybe something like a QB rating). Everything is calculated by computer.

Any driver may choose to declare himself or herself as a professional, but may not run in the amateur class for a year from the date they file as a pro.

Any driver in the amateur class who has completed a particular minumum number of races and has a rating at or beyond a certain level at the end of the year MUST declare as a professional for the next season/year.

The professional class uses ANY modified motor, no turn limit, brushless is allowed but existing restrictions on brushed motors are lifted. The idea is, you can go as fast as you want to go. Period. Luckily we don't have to worry about safety as they do in other full size racing, where there needs to be a speed cap.

The amateur class uses stock or 19T handout motors, up to the choice of the venue and/or sponsors of the event. No brushless. Existing rules, for the most part, should apply.

An optional rule (that exists in other sports): any driver receiving cash or salary from one or more sponsors must race as a professional. Could get iffy though, since we don't disclose the financials in the industry.

Anyway, wouldn't this be nice? I know I'd love it. And it would give people something to shoot for, that's attainable. Get that rating up!
Shane for ROAR Pres!!!!!

You up for it Shane?
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Old 03-29-2005, 05:15 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Tortorice
I’d like to say a few things:

First of all, if it is thought winning a stock race should go unearned, why even have the class… Why should I as a stock racer show up to compete in a class where the best I can hope to achieve is controlled practice?

.....................

For people in the lower mains, you shouldn’t use lack of sponsorship to serve as an excuse. Sponsored drivers are sponsored because they are good drivers; they do not become good drivers because they are sponsored. They achieved their position through practice, not placing blame on equipment.

The first big race I attended was the 2002 US Indoor Champs in Cleveland, OH. I made the D main in stock 12th, and when I watched the A Main, my first thought wasn’t “Man, these guys have such better equipment than me and are keeping me out of the A-Main.” What I thought to myself was “These guys are really good drivers, maybe if I practice more I’ll make the A-Main someday.”

Finally, if you disagree with that, know this: if your car contacts anything other than the carpet during your qualifier, it’s not the equipment.
I really agree with both of these points. However, I do think that the factory guys need to step up and out of stock. Like I posted a second ago, I think Shane has the best system planned out I've seen yet.
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Old 03-29-2005, 05:23 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Tortorice
I’d like to say a few things:

First of all, if it is thought winning a stock race should go unearned, why even have the class… Why should I as a stock racer show up to compete in a class where the best I can hope to achieve is controlled practice?

As for those in Stock who are sponsored and fill up the A-mains, I’m glad they continue to do so. They ensure that those who make the A-main at a large event, who don’t on a regular basis, are definitely worthy. I don’t mind if there are a few people who run stock until they can’t run period anymore. They make for competition, and they make winning much more fulfilling. Let’s face it, no one person can win them all anyway.

Unless you are truly gifted with the talent it takes to immediately jump to modified, you need stock to serve as a springboard to modified. The stronger that springboard is, the better off you’ll be in modified.

For people in the lower mains, you shouldn’t use lack of sponsorship to serve as an excuse. Sponsored drivers are sponsored because they are good drivers; they do not become good drivers because they are sponsored. They achieved their position through practice, not placing blame on equipment.

The first big race I attended was the 2002 US Indoor Champs in Cleveland, OH. I made the D main in stock 12th, and when I watched the A Main, my first thought wasn’t “Man, these guys have such better equipment than me and are keeping me out of the A-Main.” What I thought to myself was “These guys are really good drivers, maybe if I practice more I’ll make the A-Main someday.”

Finally, if you disagree with that, know this: if your car contacts anything other than the carpet during your qualifier, it’s not the equipment.
John good point if we have nothing to recieve in recogntion why race to practice.
If we all take a little from everyones post we are sure to find an appropriate medium. One idea could be, make the A in a national more then say 5 times . Then move up. Win it! you move up. that way there is always fast guys comming up and no dry well for the stock class. One thing that might help is some kind of incentive from the manufactures to lure guys into mod.

Here in the Florida state series if you win any stock class championship your not allowed to run stock for atleast 2 seasons which by then you really dont want to go backdown!
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Old 03-29-2005, 05:24 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Kerr
Shane for ROAR Pres!!!!!
I doubt ROAR would be willing to make such a large change. Although if they did, I'm sure they'd give us all at least 3 days notice before the next Nats...

I forgot to add one thing to my earlier post.

Use the points in each division to create a more fair qualifying system. There are a number of ways to do this; this would be my idea.

Four rounds of qualifying at a National event.

Rounds #1 and #2 (day one) are seeded by driver ranking.

Round #3 (day two) is a TRULY random sort (not like the pseudo-random ones we get at some venues).

Round #4 is resorted based on the fastest times from rounds 1-3.

Qual points are assigned for each round with a 0 for TQ, 2 for 2nd, etc, just like now. The best two of four rounds are used (counting ALL the rounds, not separating by day). Thus, consistency is rewarded.

Under this system, drivers get a good shot at a clean heat, but unseeded or new drivers still have a chance at a couple of clean heats. Obviously it favors the regulars, but...that's how it's supposed to be!

This obviously also requires a strong race directing team and a solid scoring software, both of which should be automatic requirements at ANY event ANYWHERE.
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Old 03-29-2005, 06:09 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally posted by futureal
Deriving a working system is so incredibly simple. If I could do it, here is how it would be:

Two divisions, amateur and professional (along with a possible masters division).

Hand out two national championships, one for each.

Drivers have a rating that is based on a formula for wins, finishing order, strength of competition, and so on (think NASCAR points mixed with the BCS, or maybe something like a QB rating). Everything is calculated by computer.

Any driver may choose to declare himself or herself as a professional, but may not run in the amateur class for a year from the date they file as a pro.

Any driver in the amateur class who has completed a particular minumum number of races and has a rating at or beyond a certain level at the end of the year MUST declare as a professional for the next season/year.

The professional class uses ANY modified motor, no turn limit, brushless is allowed but existing restrictions on brushed motors are lifted. The idea is, you can go as fast as you want to go. Period. Luckily we don't have to worry about safety as they do in other full size racing, where there needs to be a speed cap.

The amateur class uses stock or 19T handout motors, up to the choice of the venue and/or sponsors of the event. No brushless. Existing rules, for the most part, should apply.

An optional rule (that exists in other sports): any driver receiving cash or salary from one or more sponsors must race as a professional. Could get iffy though, since we don't disclose the financials in the industry.

Use the points in each division to create a more fair qualifying system. There are a number of ways to do this; this would be my idea.

Four rounds of qualifying at a National event.

Rounds #1 and #2 (day one) are seeded by driver ranking.

Round #3 (day two) is a TRULY random sort (not like the pseudo-random ones we get at some venues).

Round #4 is resorted based on the fastest times from rounds 1-3.

Qual points are assigned for each round with a 0 for TQ, 2 for 2nd, etc, just like now. The best two of four rounds are used (counting ALL the rounds, not separating by day). Thus, consistency is rewarded.

Under this system, drivers get a good shot at a clean heat, but unseeded or new drivers still have a chance at a couple of clean heats. Obviously it favors the regulars, but...that's how it's supposed to be!

This obviously also requires a strong race directing team and a solid scoring software, both of which should be automatic requirements at ANY event ANYWHERE.

Anyway, wouldn't this be nice? I know I'd love it. And it would give people something to shoot for, that's attainable. Get that rating up!
Sorry for the entire quote, but it is definitely worth seeing/reading again.

I think to add to this thought, would this be similar to what takes place in AMA motocross racing? There is a definitely "ametuer" division and a "pro" division; within the "pro" ranks there are privateers and factory-backed racers. Sounds all too familiar to me, maybe it would be something to consider? Please keep in mind that this is based on the outdoor AMA nationals.

Thanks,
JB
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Old 03-29-2005, 06:14 PM   #237
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Thats all fine and dandy,But who's going to run this..Dont say Roar.. They cant even send everyone their copy of Rev up.. Untill races are being run well by Roar,I would not want anything to do with this one.
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Old 03-29-2005, 06:20 PM   #238
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JB: I am not familiar with motocross racing at all, so I can't say. I do know that many sports use a similar structure though, in one form or another.

xxxkat: That's exactly the problem... I would start my own league, but it's nothing without manufacturer support, and there would be some form of start-up cost that I wouldn't be able to foot. ROAR is the obvious choice but I don't see any major change in their future.
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Old 03-29-2005, 06:30 PM   #239
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I'm thinking if you could start and run the RC TECH site you could pull this off..
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Old 03-29-2005, 07:29 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Tortorice
anyway.

Unless you are truly gifted with the talent it takes to immediately jump to modified, you need stock to serve as a springboard to modified. The stronger that springboard is, the better off you’ll be in modified.

19 turn is that springboard. They need to get out of stock and go
full time into 19 turn.


Maybe if there was a rule stating that at a National race, a driver can only run one class of touring, and one class of 1/12th. Then Mod drivers wouldn't be falling back to 19 turn and the stock drivers could move up without getting dominated by the mod guys.
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