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Old 03-24-2005, 05:57 PM   #61
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Dax- I don't agree that only sponsored drivers get the good stuff and 'privateers' can't compete. I would say that my equipment VERY competetive and everything that I run is straight off the hobby shop shelves. Except my tires... Having top notch stuff is only a small part of it. Here's the breakdown:

Driving 90%
Setup 8%
Equipment 2%
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Old 03-24-2005, 06:05 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by pimpedaccord
Dax- I don't agree that only sponsored drivers get the good stuff and 'privateers' can't compete. I would say that my equipment VERY competetive and everything that I run is straight off the hobby shop shelves. Except my tires... Having top notch stuff is only a small part of it. Here's the breakdown:

Driving 90%
Setup 8%
Equipment 2%
After all weren't you like in the A last year at Nats or somethng like that. Oh yeah the guy with the rookie yellow body...hahahaha

Last edited by Brian Anthony; 03-25-2005 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 03-24-2005, 06:51 PM   #63
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Originally posted by jbrow1
the guys with the lesser talent always think more $$$ is all they need.
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:15 PM   #64
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Switzer you are just an Animal To begin with!!! I was just happy to see Roar Legalize the Brushless Motors Thats all. Plus my wife is on Vacation so all I do is sit around and play on the Internet all Day.. I cannot believe people Spend as much time on here as they Do!! No wonder they are Fast.. One person said they were wrenching and typing at the Same time Deeeeeamn!!!!!
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Old 03-24-2005, 11:02 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Kerr
I don't have a problem with them running side by side. I agree it's the only way it's really going to catch on. But what I disagree with is loading the brushed motors up with a bunch of rules and NONE for the brushless.

Does anyone ever actually read the full post?
I read most of the posts end-to-end...after a while though...they all tend towards one camp or the other.

Yeah...it could have been handled better.

Yeah, if the brushless starts laying waste to the brushed stuff, they might need to revisit the rules. As it stands, though, that hasn't happened yet and it seems that...at least judging by the posts that I've read (and maybe you didn't?) that the restrictions on the type of winding allowed for the brushless motors is fairly significant and /or onerous. They must have standard connections, winding, wiring and size.

They can be teched and I'm sure that at a real race they will be.

Why go all crazy restricting a motor type that's (so far) only won 1 class at 1 race (in the hands of a consistent winner)?

Additionally, why open everything up all at once in anticipation of something that may well never come to pass (total domination of all classes by brushless motors)?

(edit) ...and now that the fast guys get to run the cheap and maintenance free motors...when and or how do the rest of get to do so? Do I just slap a 5800 in my car and play "speedbump" in mod with Kinwald until I learn how to drive?

It seems kinda odd to me that the easy-to-use, reliable and affordable motor technology is OK for the fast guys...but for the "average joe", it's verboten. Mention a 4300 for stock and you might as well yell fire in a crowded theater...

Last edited by Turbo Joe; 03-25-2005 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 03-25-2005, 11:58 AM   #66
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Default stock brushless

I really like the idea of the 'stock' class going brushless as well, but the question is: how do we get there?

Imagine a 'stock' class where all drivers are using a brushless motor running in the Novak SS 'Sportsman' mode, which has a specific limited acceleration rate and specific (24,000 rpm) maximum speed, AND all running a mandated rollout that can be different for each track or layout, but set by the race director. You would have cars that are IDENTICAL in accelleration and top speed.

And with the efficiency of these brushless motors and the capacity of the latest generation of batteries (not to mention Li based batteries that are on the way), the stock class could easily be just as fast as it is now, or faster, and we could run much longer races if we wanted to.

LRP has already said that it will have a mode that is exactly the same as the Novak Sportsman mode. If anyone else wants to make brushless controllers and wants to have guys be able to run them in the 'stock' (or maybe we should call it 'sportsman') class, they'll just have to have that setting too.

And it would be very difficult to cheat, and easy to spot if someone was cheating, and equally easy to prove it (pull the motor out and put a tach on it, or stick it into the many 'motor testers' out there now that display RPM).

You'd have a very competitive, fast, maintenance free motor class running longer races, where it's very difficult to cheat and the overall cost would be low since batteries and replacement motors are the biggest expenses now (once you stop crashing, of course).

Sounds like RC nirvana to me. Heck... I own a track... I just might try a 'sportsman' class this summer, but I don't pull in many electric guys, so I might not get enough guys to do it. Plus, with our 185 ft straightaway, anything short of 19 turn power is like watching grass grow...
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:40 PM   #67
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A 4300 won't get to the "sportsman" limiter. They don't make enough RPM/volt.

Other than that...I wholeheartedly agree. Much more fun, much less hassle and much less money.
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:20 PM   #68
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I don't see how you could control the rollout.

It all sounds good, but tne bad thing would be that fresh bearings might be the next daily thing instead of brushes? I'd like the idea of brushless stock though cause I always get motored and it might even it up though...
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:25 PM   #69
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Rollout on foams that is...
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:56 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by pimpedaccord
Dax- I don't agree that only sponsored drivers get the good stuff and 'privateers' can't compete. I would say that my equipment VERY competetive and everything that I run is straight off the hobby shop shelves. Except my tires... Having top notch stuff is only a small part of it. Here's the breakdown:

Driving 90%
Setup 8%
Equipment 2%
Actually, I'm pretty sure it's
Driving 89.56%
Setup 8.21%
Equipment 2.23%
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:38 PM   #71
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Originally posted by RodneyB
Actually, I'm pretty sure it's
Driving 89.56%
Setup 8.21%
Equipment 2.23%
That's what I was always led to believe, but if I run a 4300 in intermediate stock (only running 5 cells)...then it changes to:

98.5% motor
1% practice
.5% setup

At least that's how it gets described at my track when I qualify mid-pack in the "B". (when there's only A and B).
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Old 03-25-2005, 05:06 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
That's what I was always led to believe, but if I run a 4300 in intermediate stock (only running 5 cells)...then it changes to:

98.5% motor
1% practice
.5% setup

At least that's how it gets described at my track when I qualify mid-pack in the "B". (when there's only A and B).
you must be a-team factory driver with natural skill to require that little practice... from what ive seen factory drivers spend an average of as 40hrs a week practicing...

90% skill (includes setting up your car)
10% equipment (because once you have skill the big names will give you motors & batteries to run)

brushed / brushless has nothing to do with being fast; factory drivers use the best equipment available, brushed or brushless...
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Old 03-25-2005, 06:12 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by rovic
you must be a-team factory driver with natural skill to require that little practice...
And they say it's hard to communicate effectively on the internet...

Hint: I was being sarcastic.

Since I started using the (same or lower power than everyone in my class) 5-cell 4300 setup, I've gotten to race consistently twice a week and can sometimes run 10 or more packs in practice every night before the qualifiers ...but it's all my uber-powerful motor according to the REALLY slow guys I can beat.
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Old 03-25-2005, 07:14 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
And they say it's hard to communicate effectively on the internet...

Hint: I was being sarcastic.

Since I started using the (same or lower power than everyone in my class) 5-cell 4300 setup, I've gotten to race consistently twice a week and can sometimes run 10 or more packs in practice every night before the qualifiers ...but it's all my uber-powerful motor according to the REALLY slow guys I can beat.
how; what; why; 5cells?

sounds like certifiable intermediate; grave digger...

let me guess turbo botton on your radio, when you run the six cell?
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Old 03-25-2005, 07:48 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by pimpedaccord
I don't see how you could control the rollout.

It all sounds good, but tne bad thing would be that fresh bearings might be the next daily thing instead of brushes? I'd like the idea of brushless stock though cause I always get motored and it might even it up though...

I was thinking rubber tires mostly, but it could work with foam too... before the start of each race, the cars pass through a simple tech... check the diameter of the tire, puch it into a simple spreadsheet setup for each different type of car, and out pops the maximum pinion they could use. I bet I could set up a spreadsheet that does that in a half hour (hardest part would be figuring out what all the different final drives are on all the different TC's out there).

Heck, once I figure out the rollout for my track that day (I'm acting as the race director now), I'd print out the rollout charts for all the cars being used at my track. You'd just have to measure your tires, look at my chart, and it will tell you the maximum pinion you can use with your given spur.

It 'sounds' like a lot of work, but think of all the time we'll have once we're not doing motor maintenance anymore...

I'm really looking forward to brushless catching on. I won't shed a tear when I cut my last comm... I'll throw that comm lathe in the garbage with a smile on my face.

Oh, and I just don't see there being any advantage with new bearings versus day old bearings... in fact, my experience has been that bearings free up a little with age (probably just the grease coming out and being replaced by lighter oil I apply).

Also, the beauty of the limited accelleration and limited top end in sportsman mode is that as long as your batteries are up to some minimal standard, and your car doesn't have some kind of horrible drag, you'll still be up against the accelleration limit with new bearing or old, and it won't make any difference (belt cars, shaft cars should be equal also, in terms of accelleration/top speed).
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