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Old 03-23-2005, 02:38 PM   #886
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie
What? Curves and profiles, Your are really starting to reach for something to complain about now aren't you. Profiles and all of that only effect FEEL not speed.

What the heck do you think we do now with ESCs, and regular motors. You change the profiles to effect how the motor reacts. Brushless IS NO DIFFERENT> THE ESC DOES NOT MAKE IT FASTER< JUST DIFFERENT. Cripes! It's not majic, it's not voodoo, it's physics.

The motor make the power, the ESC simply supplies the Juice BOTTOM LINE. The ESC can make the motor slower or react different, but it cannot make a slow motor fast. Man if you figure out how to do that, please let us know, we'd love to release a product like that.
Charlie: That's my point BRO!!! An ESC can make a fast motor slow!! Profile selection and curve set-up will become more important with Brushless because if we're all running the SAME motor, our tuning will have to be done electronically to maximize the performance of the PACKAGE to the track. We'll all have the same rip so now we'll tailor the speedo response and power band to the track. I actually like this idea a bit better because it'll be less "black art" than stock motor tuning, but it's still kinda complicated. I guess we'll just get to the point where the fast guy at the track tunes speedos rather than building motors.

It won't be that much different than it is now. I would have just preferred ROAR wait untill the new systems were on the market before allowing them to be run at the Carpet Nats.
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Old 03-23-2005, 02:39 PM   #887
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So your commments are based on Problems that you've experienced with Airplane systems.... Oh that must make it apply to our completely different system then.... That makes sense......

You are right though, if you set something up wrong, and it doesn't work correctly, haveing it setup correctly will help performance, but that is just common sense right......

Again, The laptop tuning thing is still a bunch of Ērap, if the product doesn't have that as a feature, you can't just magically hook up a laptop and hack the software. This isn't a movie.

If I haven't answered your question, Email directly, I'm glad to help, but somethings can't be addressed on a forum.

The limiting of the ESCs for Slower classes won't pan out more then likely for theses Voodoo reasons. It will never be accepted by the racers to trust the ESC to keep them on the same playing field. This hacking the software to make them faster is still a bunch of crap, but that doesn't seem to matter to anyone.

I can totally forsee a slower motor for 19 and stock classes being released. Just like now, same ESC, but a slower motor.
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Old 03-23-2005, 02:45 PM   #888
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Are you used to working with very complex products?? I case you haven't noticed all of our ESC have these same fetures, and even with Brushed motors, using the wrong profile can make a fast motor slow, or run poorly. IT IS NO DIFFERENT THEN IT IS NOW. Why do you keep arguing that it is when it is very very clear it is NOT. You agree with my point, then you disagree with it, then bring up the same point I've already clarified.

Why is it a problem if someone uses somehing wrong, That is the same issue now. If you setup your ESC wrong, your motor runs for crap and you have problems. Brushless will help get rid of that problem actually as the default setttings will be just about right for everyone. Fine tuning to each person will able to be done easily, AND EXPLAINED IN THE INSTRUCTIONS, just like they are now. If people don't take the time to learn their product, that's not our fault is it. And again, I repeat, these are the same issues you run into with our current technology of brushed motors.

It won't be more or less important then it is now.

Why are you so against this stuff?? Its good for the sport in the long run.
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Old 03-23-2005, 02:47 PM   #889
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie
So your commments are based on Problems that you've experienced with Airplane systems.... Oh that must make it apply to our completely different system then.... That makes sense......

You are right though, if you set something up wrong, and it doesn't work correctly, haveing it setup correctly will help performance, but that is just common sense right......

Again, The laptop tuning thing is still a bunch of Ērap, if the product doesn't have that as a feature, you can't just magically hook up a laptop and hack the software. This isn't a movie.

If I haven't answered your question, Email directly, I'm glad to help, but somethings can't be addressed on a forum.

The limiting of the ESCs for Slower classes won't pan out more then likely for theses Voodoo reasons. It will never be accepted by the racers to trust the ESC to keep them on the same playing field. This hacking the software to make them faster is still a bunch of crap, but that doesn't seem to matter to anyone.

I can totally forsee a slower motor for 19 and stock classes being released. Just like now, same ESC, but a slower motor.
I don't see it as HACKING the software, but we are going to be able to adjust the curves and response of the speedo like we do with brushed stuff right? I know that a sensored system offers a TON of tuning potential. I'm not bitching about brushless, I've "seen the light" so to speak. My current gripe has to do with Brushless rules in their infancy being sorta wishy-washy. It's not a knock on Novak, but more on ROAR's less than effective management of this new technology from a regulatory standpoint.

You and I have known each other for quite awhile, and I'm sorry if my posts have been less eloquent than normal. Right now I know that systems were run at the Nats that customers can't buy, and that's what I'm talking about with the separation of the haves and have nots. When everything is finalized and the technology is no longer "new", I'm sure the playing field will level itself out. My concern is for the hobby in the SHORT-TERM.

Ian
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Old 03-23-2005, 02:55 PM   #890
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Well, read the Roar rules for regular motors and brushless motors, they are quit similar if you get down to it. Just dimension limits.
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Old 03-23-2005, 03:10 PM   #891
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie
Well, read the Roar rules for regular motors and brushless motors, they are quit similar if you get down to it. Just dimension limits.
Typically I agree, but the one thing that I see as the big problem is the lack of price caps on the brushless systems. technically the system can cost $1,000 which in the long run may be cheaper, but it's much easier to pay small amounts than one big lump. I think that lack of pricing limits wasn't the best move.
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Old 03-23-2005, 03:14 PM   #892
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Good Point Derek, I'm sure an admendment can be made.

They are good at changing the rules....
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Old 03-23-2005, 03:39 PM   #893
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie
Good Point Derek, I'm sure an admendment can be made.

They are good at changing the rules....
LOL, yes they are. "Good" would be a questionable choice of terms though.

For the record I like brushless (super lazy racer), but considering all the sides involved a seperate class would have made more sense. Maybe it's 20/20 hindsight, but the two techologies are so different and hard to compare I think that's best.
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Old 03-23-2005, 04:04 PM   #894
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The brushless technology discussion deserves another thread. I am fascinated with this dialog and hope it continues. I think the dialog will get better if it was in a thread with a "brushless" title.
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Old 03-23-2005, 04:05 PM   #895
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Quote:
Originally posted by DerekB
LOL, yes they are. "Good" would be a questionable choice of terms though.

For the record I like brushless (super lazy racer), but considering all the sides involved a seperate class would have made more sense. Maybe it's 20/20 hindsight, but the two techologies are so different and hard to compare I think that's best.
I would like to see John Orr or someone fast like that run both at the same track- same condidtions too see exactly what the difference is....
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Old 03-23-2005, 04:59 PM   #896
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There was a "Provisional Class" ran last season. This technology is coming, why try to push it away. The only way for it to progress fast, it to Race it against what is out there now, on the same track, with the caliber of driver.

I love the internet. And Derek Buono!
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Old 03-23-2005, 05:07 PM   #897
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Default brushed and brushless

It seems the two technologies are not offering a huge advantage over the other at this point.

In TC a brushed won, in 1:12 a brushless won.

In 1:12 it came down to the 3rd Main to determine a winner.

The winner won because of driving not motor at this particular race.

After talking to observers of the mains you could not tell which cars had the brushed or brushless motors in them it was that close.

ROAR has decided to follow the international rules for these classes that are being run in international competitions.

Our approval process was flawed but will be corrected before the next nationals for brushless and 19T.
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Old 03-23-2005, 06:37 PM   #898
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie
Are you used to working with very complex products?? I case you haven't noticed all of our ESC have these same fetures, and even with Brushed motors, using the wrong profile can make a fast motor slow, or run poorly. IT IS NO DIFFERENT THEN IT IS NOW. Why do you keep arguing that it is when it is very very clear it is NOT. You agree with my point, then you disagree with it, then bring up the same point I've already clarified.

Why is it a problem if someone uses somehing wrong, That is the same issue now. If you setup your ESC wrong, your motor runs for crap and you have problems. Brushless will help get rid of that problem actually as the default setttings will be just about right for everyone. Fine tuning to each person will able to be done easily, AND EXPLAINED IN THE INSTRUCTIONS, just like they are now. If people don't take the time to learn their product, that's not our fault is it. And again, I repeat, these are the same issues you run into with our current technology of brushed motors.

It won't be more or less important then it is now.

Why are you so against this stuff?? Its good for the sport in the long run.
if your talking to me I never said I was against brushless cuz I am not, not at all I am all for it, i was just merely making a point about the "voodoo magic" in the profiles. and let me clarify what i meant by faster. Change how the power is delivered to the motor, over the throttle curve, and the timing as it travels through that curve. I guess I should have used the term "quicker" not "faster" and i definitely want complaining, I was explaining, huge difference, Brushless is the future of R/C as well as Lipo or some other exotics that will arise i am sure.
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Old 03-23-2005, 06:39 PM   #899
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Default Re: brushed and brushless

Quote:
Originally posted by ROARprez
It seems the two technologies are not offering a huge advantage over the other at this point.

In TC a brushed won, in 1:12 a brushless won.

In 1:12 it came down to the 3rd Main to determine a winner.

The winner won because of driving not motor at this particular race.

After talking to observers of the mains you could not tell which cars had the brushed or brushless motors in them it was that close.

ROAR has decided to follow the international rules for these classes that are being run in international competitions.

Our approval process was flawed but will be corrected before the next nationals for brushless and 19T.
You can't just excuse this situation. The process was not flawed it just wasn't followed. The brushless motors should not have been allowed to race at the Nationals for they were not commercially available per your guidlines. Rules are drawn up for a reason and they are to be inforced. In chosing not to inforce your own rules you are setting a very dangerous precedent. You might as well throw the rule book out the window because you are allowing your own guidlines to not be adhered too by you, ROAR itself.
Quit trying to cover it up with excuses and just apoligize to the entire racing community that you made a mistake. This would go a lot futher than trying to cover up a mistake.
Just my opinion
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Old 03-23-2005, 06:52 PM   #900
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