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Old 03-16-2005, 10:06 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by EddieO
You wanna let a 2 wheel direct drive car that weighs like 25 oz less run with the touring cars?? A properly setup 6 cell 1/10th pan car with a 19t motor would be faster than most sedans....one with an 8 turn would not even be close.


Are you kidding me?


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I actually know my car's weight in grams... I'll gladly add 200 grams to the car to bring it up to weight....
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:15 AM   #122
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I'm sure you could buy equipment to check for motor winds to see if someone was cheating(this should only apply to the power restricted classes). I am thinking in terms of simplicity. Any esc and any motor. Just restrict the voltage(# of cells). I know this opens a whole can of worms in the cost side of things but how much more does it cost to adjust the power potential of a brushless motor using the current standards. I'm not sure you can compare it to brushed where a hand wound 5 turn will cost the same as a handwound 19t. But also ask yourself how much do you spend on stock if you are a serious racer. The fast guys have a new motor or motors for every big race(or handouts, increased entry fee) they have lathes, brushes, springs, maybe a dyno, ect ect. These motors become disposable like tires. The poor racer moving up just cannot compete on the power side of things at the very high levels of racing unless they spend alot in equipment or have someone who can do it for them. Speed is all about cost be it brushless, brushed, F1, nascar, or a riding lawnmower. I would rather let the companies compete for our dollar with better and better equipment then have to rely on having your own motor tuning shop to keep up. Again these are just my ramblings and there other issues that I'm sure I didn't even think of.
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:29 AM   #123
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I was told that the sky is falling, and that clouds are heavier and harder than they look.



Perhaps the use of brushless at the Carpet nats this weekend is a bit rushed, but generally speaking to those that feel the sky is falling on the small motor builders because there is no time to prepare... rubbish.

Success in business requires foresight. Its not unreasonable to have expected Brushless to become legal for modified racing. Those companies that have been researching and developing brushless systems, but haven't released one will miss out on 1 race. Deal with it. You should have expected this, I'm suprised how many of you bash Roar one minute for draggin their feet and the next for rushing into things. All the while complaining that ROAR is inconsistent, yet shocked when they are... well... inconsistent. Quit

And to the guy that brought up outsourcing of jobs as an issue with ROAR's decision... BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The sky is indeed falling eh?
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:48 AM   #124
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Originally posted by vtl1180ny
I still want to know where all this software hacking is coming from???? The motor can only go so fast and put out so much power.... If this was so true then why don't we have people hacking our current brushed ESC's??????
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Quote:
Originally posted by GordonFreeman vtl1180ny, BINGO! There is nothing about brushless that make's it easier to hack than the current ESCs.
People don't hack current ESCs since there IS nothing to hack. You can only go as fast as motor/batteries let you. What are you going to hack? the FETs? drive frequency? You have to have a monitoring/cut off program in there in first place for you to 'hack' anything... All current/brushed ESC does is modulate voltage supplied to the motor. Take Novak 4300 'stock' system as example. What if someone was able to tap into the ESC's program, and say bump up the KV value, or by-pass thermal shutdown? How's Novak keeping most of 4300s similar in performance? isn't from ESC's software? BL ESCs control LOT more then regular ESC we use with brushed system.

BTW.. sad to see this turn into another Brushed/BL pissing contest, but wasn't the original idea behind this thread was ROAR pooching the rule book and opening a can of worms during 'nat's week?
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:01 AM   #125
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JKA......I am not sure what business you run, but I just can't imagine how it would be successful with that attitude. If you want to get in a who is more successful arguement with me, feel free...

When you have a set of rules you operate under because a large portion of your business is promoted under an organization that has a governing body that governs itself with rules....

Under these rules, the companies prepare their products, for now and the future under them....

In this case, the rules are being ignored......I have NO problem with brushless running with brushed, I could careless.

What I have a problem with is these motors are NOT commericially available, nor have they been approved under the rules.....BOTH are required under the rules. The playing field this weekend isn't going to be fair, regardless of what happens in the A main...the guys from the bottom to the top can be effected....

Now, if the motors were available and approved, as required under the rules....I would NOT be complaining..I would DEAL with it..why, cause I could just go buy one from the store and run it....

How is a company supposed to prepare for something like this? They can't, because to my knowledge, this has never happened before.....

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Old 03-16-2005, 11:02 AM   #126
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JKA aka Keith Allen: Your argument and statements are invalid and only inflammatory with no virtually no support. The only thing you have said with validity is the fact that these people should have known that brushless is coming. Despite that to all of a sudden allow the use of a propulsion system with no price restrictions, that doesn't have to meet availability restrictions, with better quality materials, and really no approval process at a National Championship race with only days of notice is absurd and has been the thing the motor manufacturers have been complaining about.

Your attempt at using the comparison to chicken little is childish.
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:12 AM   #127
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So did somthing happen behind the scenes to cause this. Why would they change their rules with so little time for teams to prepare?
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:13 AM   #128
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I am an electric class racer...both on and off road. I never really understood or had an interest in nitro racing. I now have a Drake truck and have raced a few times with it. I can now see why the nitro area of rc is growing so fast and is in a positive swing right now. The rapid growing area of nitro is in the hop up/customizing arena more then the performance side. Not that nitro does not evolve...it does but it does so at a much slower rate then the electric side. I hope that all of the current factors that are going on with on road electric racing that we do not see the regression of the racing in terms of particpation. The latest trend has kits in the $400 + range, new batteries on the horizon or on the market and now with the legalizing of brushless a new set of motor/esc to factor in. These are not just the usual progression that we have seen over the last 10 years. The equipment and speed has evolved to an awsome new high. But at some point there becomes a cost threshhold that customers may have to make choices. Now it is sunny today where I live and my sky is not falling...in Kansas that can change in a hurry though...lol But the on road scene in my area went from strong to nitro offroad in the last few months and things are not looking like they are going to change anytime soon. To bad to...I do not like my cars in the air...lol

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Old 03-16-2005, 11:19 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by JKA
I was told that the sky is falling, and that clouds are heavier and harder than they look.



Perhaps the use of brushless at the Carpet nats this weekend is a bit rushed, but generally speaking to those that feel the sky is falling on the small motor builders because there is no time to prepare... rubbish.

Success in business requires foresight. Its not unreasonable to have expected Brushless to become legal for modified racing. Those companies that have been researching and developing brushless systems, but haven't released one will miss out on 1 race. Deal with it. You should have expected this, I'm suprised how many of you bash Roar one minute for draggin their feet and the next for rushing into things. All the while complaining that ROAR is inconsistent, yet shocked when they are... well... inconsistent. Quit

And to the guy that brought up outsourcing of jobs as an issue with ROAR's decision... BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The sky is indeed falling eh?
I sure hope you have a secure job. And hopefully your in a position that cant be replaced. Because if I pass you on the street holding a coffee cup asking for money. I will probly say your sky fell out? and laugh at you.

Good luck!
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:31 AM   #130
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Originally posted by racer-oZ

If manufacturers were told in January of 2005 that in January 2006 ROAR would allow all brushless motors to run along side brushed I don't think motor manufacturers would be upset like they are having it sprung on them overnight.
I'm just a "basher" (since I only race club races...LOL) and I heard about what ROAR was going to do last spring.

If it was "news" to any of the people that were affected in any substantive way -- it's either because they had their head in the sand or they were less "plugged-in" than me. Either would would be a dumb move if you make a living racing toy cars.
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:40 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scott Fisher
Your attempt at using the comparison to chicken little is childish.
That was my intention...mocking the way people are blowing this out of proportion.


Quote:
Originally posted by EddieO
JKA......I am not sure what business you run, but I just can't imagine how it would be successful with that attitude. If you want to get in a who is more successful arguement with me, feel free...
LOL I never once said I was better than anyone. I just stated it was reasonably forseeable that ROAR would be inconsistent like this, and that it might very well be with Brushless technology. I'm not saying you should have been prepared for this race in particular... just for this general change.

Quote:
Originally posted by EddieO
How is a company supposed to prepare for something like this? They can't, because to my knowledge, this has never happened before.....
For the one race? Perhaps not. But haven't you stated you already have started R&D on a brushless system? Thats what I am referring to. You'll lose one race, and despite the large amount of money you've stated this race will cost you you need to carve out the portion of that expense related to stock racing. You've lost no ground at all there.

So just set back, enjoy your weekend. Leave the complaints for when there are legitmate results backing your argument. Because until then your posts (as valid as they may be) come across like whining.

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Old 03-16-2005, 11:40 AM   #132
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People have mentioned Hacker motors. Now there a guy at my local club that runs one with the Shultz controller and the packege works very well and is very very fast. However, there is something that i was told a while back that would make (the motor at least) ilegal with the rules that have generally been written for brushless.
this is correct. basically everyone except novak wraps their motors in a delta pattern wind. there are many other things that make other motors illegal.

plettengurg: slotted rotor, rotor too large

lehner: slotted rotor on 15 and 19 series. can be made to run in WYE configuration.

hacker: delta wound

Aveox: slotted rotor, motor too large.
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:44 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by tomdav
I\ Think of brushless stock. How easy it would be to play with the speedo to get that extra bit. Its kind of like restrictor plate racing but w/o any way to check then cheating would be rampant. So the term "stock" would no longer apply.
LOL...right...there are guys at my track with "stock" motors that will smoke most 19T motors. The term "stock" means about as much in RC as it does in "big" cars...nothing.
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:54 AM   #134
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I was fully aware ROAR intended to make brushless legal for use in the modified classes in 2005.....

What I was NOT aware of.....was that motors would have no price limits, would not have to be approved, nor would they need to be commericially available by some exemption a week before nationals....


I guess some people seem to be missing the point....

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Old 03-16-2005, 11:54 AM   #135
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Originally posted by razzo
Take Novak 4300 'stock' system as example. What if someone was able to tap into the ESC's program, and say bump up the KV value, or by-pass thermal shutdown? How's Novak keeping most of 4300s similar in performance? isn't from ESC's software? BL ESCs control LOT more then regular ESC we use with brushed system.
That's nonsense.

A 4300 has more winds than a 5800 (11 vs. 7 I believe).

They use the SAME speedo as a 5800. The software is the SAME.

You can swap them back and forth.

You can set the ESC to the "limited" profiles (3 or 4) and the 4300 will not hit the limiter. (24000 rpm)

You can still only get what the batteries and winds will give you. You just get it without all the arcing, maintenance or cost.
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